Logging Ground Given

TOGA9

TOGA9

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Do you keep a record of ground given or other types of non-flying instruction? I was looking at new logbooks and I saw one that had columns for "flight instruction" and "ground instruction" given. I will of course be logging dual given, but is there a benefit to keeping track of simulator or ground instruction? If so, do you track this in your main logbook, or keep a separate logbook or document?

Thanks!
 
I keep a separate document outside of my logbook, to indicate any flight, and ground instruction I have given. I record only the flight portion in my logbook.
 
Just log it in your students log book. Make notes in a students file if you need to. Don't make it any more complicated than it already can be.
 
When I was a student I merely received an endorsement stating that I'd received the training — there wasn't a breakdown given. My old logbook had a place for ground instruction, and I think I logged the 3.0 of G1000 ground school when I got it. Everything else was endorsements.
 
If you read through 61.105, 107, 109; 61.125, 127, 129; 61.63 and 61.65; these regs are very clear about what ground instruction must be logged. Most of us never recieved this during training, unless at a 141 school, but then it is not required to be done. In 61 it must be in a logbook, date, time and content; or it must be on a separate "training" log of some sort. Our local fsdo is now heavily emphasizing with dpe's and cfi's that this required ground instruction be logged, or an applicant for a checkride will be found ineligible for a test until this ground instruction is documented. THis is also being emphasized nation wide from what I've been told, and is a result of accidents and incidents, some famous, others not so.
 
I never have, just students logbooks. I would estimate around 3-4 hours for every hour of flight for private instruction. 5 hours for every 1 hour of CFI/I instruction, and around 1 hr per 1 hr of instrument/commercial instruction.

Using that I have around 3500+ hours of ground instruction. Not a single one of it logged.
 
mojo6911 said:
Yikes! 120 hours of individual ground school (minimum by your estimate) for a private pilot?
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I taught at a 141 school. 1.5 hr prebrief, 1 hr debrief, and a lot of separate briefings as well. For the international students it would be more like 5 hrs per hr flight.
 
Chief Captain said:
That's a LOT of ground. 2.5 hours for a flight that lasts 90 minutes on average?
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Oh yeah, everything was done once. Took more of a military approach later on when we got reduced to less lessons but slightly more time. Steep turns were done on 2 lessons then tested to standards, stalls on 3 lessons, so on and so forth. By the end of the course they were quicker, but I know of a lot of prebriefs being 2 hours going through every minute of flight beforehand and the knowledge with it. CFI/CFII we had 2 ground briefings for every 1 flight, at least. Some students ended up taking way way WAY more. The actual flight briefings were short, but the ground briefs with lesson plans took way longer.

Why is everyone so surprised? Ground briefings are way cheaper than flying and it means the student spends less time in the air. While practical knowledge is good, it's better when the student understands it and corrects themselves. The flipside is 2 or 3 flights before the "Oh!" moment on a maneuver. I remember a student who had done 3 flights, it was his first time doing steep turns. We went up and had worked on coordination the previous day and was finally starting to use the right foot. So we started the maneuver, got low and he instantly increased power, picked up the nose a little and a bit of rudder it was all good. He said it made sense, just like a bike going uphill. We're just going up a hill in a turn. The briefing worked for him, and many more.

If you're not doing at least an hr of briefing for an hr of flight for private pilot students, you're doing it wrong. You get the hours and your students get the bill.

A LOT more babysitting than part 61. Flying everyday and the students usually only studied for the flight for maybe an hr. The rest was for classroom stuff, regs, advanced systems etc. So AFH was basically prebrief and then debrief stuff.

My favorite training was commerical pilots. They had all the basics, could focus on the more detailed stuff. 1 hr prebrief, more student led, for 2 hours of flight.
 
mojo6911 said:
Yikes! 120 hours of individual ground school (minimum by your estimate) for a private pilot?
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Usually ended up being around 65-70, with about 50 billed. We had students get out with 33 hours (141). International students, 70+ hours easy. We would usually pair them up, but yeah. They would finish their training in about 2 months. Goal was 40 days.
 
ProudPilot said:
If you're not doing at least an hr of briefing for an hr of flight for private pilot students, you're doing it wrong. You get the hours and your students get the bill.
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I disagree with EVERYTHING here 100%, but if it works for you, then so be it. My foreign students usually finish with ~50 hours. My better students do about 30 hours of ground from private to commercial- obviously with the bulk of it being private ground. I'm not trying to milk hours out of my students either- as a matter of fact, at my school with your approach, you would be chastised for doing too much ground, and quickly loose any business you got.
 
Chief Captain said:
I disagree with EVERYTHING here 100%, but if it works for you, then so be it. My foreign students usually finish with ~50 hours. My better students do about 30 hours of ground from private to commercial- obviously with the bulk of it being private ground. I'm not trying to milk hours out of my students either- as a matter of fact, at my school with your approach, you would be chastised for doing too much ground, and quickly loose any business you got.
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Your attitude is one of the biggest obstacles we have in General Aviation, or more precisely, initial pilot training for civilians.
You teach the test. In minimum hours, and then brag about it.

Like the attitude of solo'ing in minimum time. Where the heck does that come from? Machoisim?

If the general Public knew it was a bragging right to solo and learn the minimum requirements to minimum standards, they would not get on another public airplane.

You go, Chief Captain...
 
nosehair said:
You teach the test. In minimum hours, and then brag about it.

Really? I wasn't aware of that. I think if you talk to ANY of my students you'll find that they have received a lot of instruction that goes above and beyond the PTS.

Like the attitude of solo'ing in minimum time. Where the heck does that come from? Machoisim?

Don't know the answer to that one either. I'm not sending anybody off unless they're safe.
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Keep your presumably military training. Before I fly with a student, I plan each lesson to maximize what can be learned. If you plan your lesson properly, and the student is good enough, you'll have enough time to throw in something extra at the end of each lesson. I make it clear to them that it isn't required for the test, but it's good to know. I make that disclaimer because I don't want to be accused of "milking" my students. In my experience, my students actually enjoy the extra training, and don't mind spending the extra cash.

Unless you can show me that the military spends a ton of extra money teaching pilots maneuvers "just for kicks", I think I'll continue my dangerous teaching.
 
Chief Captain said:
Before I fly with a student, I plan each lesson to maximize what can be learned. If you plan your lesson properly, and the student is good enough, you'll have enough time to throw in something extra at the end of each lesson. I make it clear to them that it isn't required for the test, but it's good to know. I make that disclaimer because I don't want to be accused of "milking" my students. In my experience, my students actually enjoy the extra training, and don't mind spending the extra cash.
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This post sounds much more positive than your previous post where you disagreed 100% with a poster who uses the old overall average of an hour ground for each hour of flight. Sounded like you were bragging about doing little of that.
Anyway, regarding teaching the test: what I mean is most schools and instructors teach only the PTS maneuvers as they are labeled as TASKs.

But each TASK references the Airplane flying Handbook, and/or the Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge. and other pubs.
The Instructor's endorsement for PP checkride says he/she has observed the applicant demonstrate PP knowledge and skill in "all pilot operations", not just the PTS items. All items presumably in the referenced Handbooks.

My point is that the Instructor's responsibility is to teach all materiel in the referenced publications. That's not extra and it is not "milking" a student.

That maybe has become the standard, but that is also my point.
 
I'm glad we both agree that teaching just to pass the test isn't the best way of doing it. I still disagree with ProudPilot. He or she is suggesting that each hour of flight requires an hour of briefing time, and that if I don't put in that hour of ground, I'm just padding my logbook without really helping the student.

I cut back on my ground time by assigning homework before each lesson. So I'll tell my student to read the chapter on holds before we go fly. This way, when I do ground on holds, at least the student has some idea about what's going on, and we don't need to spend 30 minutes talking about inbound vs. outbound leg.

I try to work smarter, not harder.
 
While I agree on homework, it varies greatly with the student. I have had students that the entire course was 7 hours of ground time, the rest was get in and go. However, that was very, VERY rare as the knowledge the students gain from studying the book varies wildly. I make myself available for questions and guidance and the students will usually use about 70-90 minutes preflight. Then afterwards a good 20min debrief. I have had students that get there, 10 minutes later we're at the aircraft, I feel this is rare.

The quality of the flight is the most important fact as the cost due to fuel and insurance has made it prohibitive. The student will run out of money at some point, but more likely near the end of training if you do less flights and more ground. Each flight is also more rewarding with more progress for the student when they understand the requirements, what the final PTS requires, and how than can improve before we go fly it.

Now EVERYONE teaches differently, but a few things we can agree on. Every student learns differently. Every student has varied motivations and varied schedules. Also every student has different fears. We as instructors need to figure out how to best ensure they are comfortable with the material, it is at a pace that can successfully deal with and at the end of the flight they feel better about their skills, not worse.

Where I worked was a 141 school that you got in trouble for going over hours. So ground was a big BIG deal. Paired with that, that the students had full days and squeezed in a flight or briefing, ensuring that they had successfully studied to gain the private (or other course) knowledge for that flight took time. If you are able to test your students knowledge in a short amount of time to the standards before each flight to ensure the flight will be successful, then I say keep doing it! That's great, my experience has been different. Hence my times vary.







Now, can't we all just get along?
 
We're one big happy family now. Yes, they're all different, and I guess I've been fairly lucky lately to have mostly great students lately, so I really didn't need to do much ground. Good to see we're all on the same team.
 
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