Logging ? for the CFIs, or anyone one else :)

Cherokee_Cruiser

Cherokee_Cruiser

Bronteroc
Hey guys, here's a situation.

Say you have done all your training in a Cherokee 140, and got your Private ASEL.

Now, you wish to go into a Cessna 150/152. You decide to take an instructor with you to get familiar with the C150/152. You also decide that on this flight, you will fly to an airport greater than 50 nm from your original airport, therefore classifying this flight as a cross-country.

Keep in mind that the instructor is sitting in the right seat, and you are sitting in the left seat (you have a PPL-ASEL).

Now, here are the questions:

1. Will this time logged count as " PIC - Dual Received "

2. If it is "PIC - Dual Received" then that means that the cross country time counts as PIC. So, does THIS type of flight count towards your goal of 50 hours PIC cross country for the instrument rating?

That's all !

Thanks in advance!
 
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1. Will this time logged count as " PIC - Dual Received "

2. If it is "PIC - Dual Received" then that means that the cross country time counts as PIC. So, does THIS type of flight count towards your goal of 50 hours PIC cross country for the instrument rating?

That's all !

Thanks in advance!

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1. Dual received if he's actually giving you instruction, but with the ASEL, you't qualified for the 150 without him.

2. The XC time counts with or without the CFI onboard, and towards a rating.
 
Thanks Mike!

Just to make sure though, I guess technically, it's a "checkout" on the C150/152. So, in that case, it has to be dual received, correct ?

And also, about #2, it will be PIC cross country time regardless of the instructor being there or not ?

Thanks !
 
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Thanks Mike!

Just to make sure though, I guess technically, it's a "checkout" on the C150/152. So, in that case, it has to be dual received, correct ?

And also, about #2, it will be PIC cross country time regardless of the instructor being there or not ?

Thanks !

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If you're receiving instruction by the CFI (in this case if it's a checkout), then sure, it's dual. I was just making the point that such an arrangement doesn't have to be dual at all times.

#2, it's PIC since you're qualified in the category and class, regardless of CFI or not.
 
The checkout is most likely an insurance or FBO/club requirement; it's not an FAA one. Nothing says a club checkout must be a local flight, so you could just as easily accomplish it as part of a cross-country flight, if the CFI is willing. If you're doing all the flying, the CFI can't log it as PIC time unless it goes in your logbook as dual-received--I'm pretty sure your CFI will insist on that. However, if you're doing all the flying, you can log it as PIC time too, under the sole-manipulator rule since you're already rated in the aircraft as far as the FAA is concerned.
 
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If you're doing all the flying, the CFI can't log it as PIC time unless it goes in your logbook as dual-received--I'm pretty sure your CFI will insist on that.

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I've had a couple of freelance students that want me on the airplane, but they don't want to log any dual recieved - meaning that I can't log any dual given. They want me there as a "safety net", so to speak.

I do it. I also charge more per hour . . .
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This may be a sidebar discussion, but is hour logging verified. Not to say that any one would ever intentionally "double log" hours. But are pilot log books forwarded to the FAA along with plane hours (hobbs) to check against this?

Say, the plane is type X, and it does not require a 'safety pilot' and both pilots accidentally log PIC. The plane's hobbs meter reads 4 hours. Should the total pilot time theoretically, or even actually match the hobbs meter? I hope I am asking this question correctly???
 
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I do it. I also charge more per hour . . .
wink.gif


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That raises an interesting question: what is the value of an hour in a logbook?
 
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I do it. I also charge more per hour . . .
wink.gif


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That raises an interesting question: what is the value of an hour in a logbook?

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You know, that's hard to say, but it is an interesting question!

I'm certain that the FAA would consider flight time to be compensation when a private pilot starts ferrying aircraft for free!!
 
Believe me, they already do! For example, Civil Air Patrol has a special FAA exemption allowing its private-rated pilots to be reimbursed for operating expenses on Air Force-assigned missions, but the FAA recently decreed that CAP private pilots can either accept reimbursement or log the flight time--but not both, since it views logged time as a form of compensation. I don't know what pinhead dreamed that up, but there it is. To me, flight time in a log book is a historical record of experience for the purpose of establishing flight currency, and little else.
 
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This may be a sidebar discussion, but is hour logging verified. Not to say that any one would ever intentionally "double log" hours. But are pilot log books forwarded to the FAA along with plane hours (hobbs) to check against this?

Say, the plane is type X, and it does not require a 'safety pilot' and both pilots accidentally log PIC. The plane's hobbs meter reads 4 hours. Should the total pilot time theoretically, or even actually match the hobbs meter? I hope I am asking this question correctly???

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No, hours are not verified by the FAA, or anybody else for that matter. However, the honor system is fairly strict, and word gets around if somebody is found cheating. Aviation is a small world and it's a bad deal if somebody becomes known as a person who stretches the numbers in their logbook.

Also, I don't see how somebody could accidently log PIC. There are some obscure/less understood areas of the regs, but logging PIC is fairly clear for the most part. You're either manipulating the controls or you aren't. You're either giving instruction or you're not. It's that sort of thing. I've never gotten done with a flight with another pilot and said...so...yeah...which one of us was PIC? It's one of those things that is clear before we even start the engine.
 
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You're either manipulating the controls or you aren't. You're either giving instruction or you're not.

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You're safety pilot but not manipulating the controls. PIC or not? You're manipulating the controls of an Arrow, but no complex endorsement. PIC or not? I wish it was as simple as "flying the plane" or "giving instruction." How about this one, flying with someone working on their instrument rating, they're flying the plane, you're acting as safety pilot, but you're on an IFR flight plan filed under your name.

I can easily see how logging PIC can become a jumbled mess. It's NOT logging PIC where I can see it not being a problem.
 
Or to add to Kell's example...


You are safety pilot and the the guy on the controls (on an IFR flight plan) flies into the clouds. Are you still logging PIC? The dude under the hood certainly doesn't need you anymore. But, on the other hand, does the guy under the hood even know that he is in a cloud. For him, the whole flight will be logged as "simulated instrument" (if you don't tell him to look outside). However, as soon as he comes out of the hood you are no longer a safety pilot and can't log anything. No simple thing about it.
 
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I can easily see how logging PIC can become a jumbled mess. It's NOT logging PIC where I can see it not being a problem.

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I know what you're saying. There are definately areas without strict definition.

But going back to my original post, I was just saying that I don't understand how two pilots can "accidentally" log PIC when they shouldn't. I'm extremely careful about the regs and I think about what is going to happen before I start the engine.

If there is any doubt about who is logging what and why, I talk to the other pilot before the flight and make sure we're on the same page as to what each of us is doing, what each of us is logging, and why. If there is doubt about if what we're proposing to do is legal or not, I don't do it. If there is doubt about if I can log it, I don't log it.

I'm just saying I think it's a bad situation on multiple levels if two pilots come to the end of a flight and think, "Gee whiz, how do you suppose we should log this?"

That should've all been straightened out before the flight.
 
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You are safety pilot and the the guy on the controls (on an IFR flight plan) flies into the clouds. Are you still logging PIC? The dude under the hood certainly doesn't need you anymore.

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Depends on if the guy under the hood is instrument rated. If he isn't, and only the safety pilot is, then the safety pilot is the only one capable of acting as PIC, and the guy under the hood is logging time under the sole manipulator rule.
 
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You're either manipulating the controls or you aren't. You're either giving instruction or you're not.

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You're safety pilot but not manipulating the controls. PIC or not?

[/ QUOTE ] If you are acting as PIC, then log this as PIC, otherwise, no.

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You're manipulating the controls of an Arrow, but no complex endorsement. PIC or not?

[/ QUOTE ] Yes, PIC. Endorsement is not required to log.

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I wish it was as simple as "flying the plane" or "giving instruction." How about this one, flying with someone working on their instrument rating, they're flying the plane, you're acting as safety pilot, but you're on an IFR flight plan filed under your name.

[/ QUOTE ] For the time that a safety pilot is required (under the hood), yes, log the PIC. Otherwise, no
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I can easily see how logging PIC can become a jumbled mess. It's NOT logging PIC where I can see it not being a problem.

[/ QUOTE ]
 
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Or to add to Kell's example...


You are safety pilot and the the guy on the controls (on an IFR flight plan) flies into the clouds. Are you still logging PIC? The dude under the hood certainly doesn't need you anymore. But, on the other hand, does the guy under the hood even know that he is in a cloud. For him, the whole flight will be logged as "simulated instrument" (if you don't tell him to look outside). However, as soon as he comes out of the hood you are no longer a safety pilot and can't log anything. No simple thing about it.

[/ QUOTE ] Yes, you can log the PIC. You ARE still required as long as the other pilot has a view limiting device on. The requirement to see and avoid exists even when in and out of the clouds.
 
This is similar to what I am doing. I have to get ten hours of time in the Cardinal before I'm allowed to fly it on my own due to insurance requirements.

But, I have an ASEL, so I'm logging it as PIC time, and since I'm doing it under the hood, I'm logging it as simulated instrument as well. So I log dual received, PIC (sole manipulator) and simulated instrument. I already have my 50 hours of XC time, so I'm not logging that.

I'm going to do a flight in the Cardinal under IFR (my instructor will file) that is 250 NM and includes three different approaches. This will be logged as PIC time, instrument time, and dual received.

All totally legal and I'd be a fool not to log it this way.
 
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This is similar to what I am doing. I have to get ten hours of time in the Cardinal before I'm allowed to fly it on my own due to insurance requirements.

But, I have an ASEL, so I'm logging it as PIC time, and since I'm doing it under the hood, I'm logging it as simulated instrument as well. So I log dual received, PIC (sole manipulator) and simulated instrument. I already have my 50 hours of XC time, so I'm not logging that.


[/ QUOTE ]Um. If it =is= an cross-country flight, why =wouldn't= you log the cross-country time?
 
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