Logging Dual Given ?

Airdale

Airdale

Well-Known Member
I conduct a lot of instrument training in a Frasca 142 Sim device. I log in the students logbook under the Simulator column and dual received column, thats it. It doesn't count towards their total time. The question is, should I log this sim time as dual given in my logbook and put in the remarks it was sim time?

I haven't done so yet, I can always make an entry later on. My feeling is that if I log it just as dual given in a sim, its going to screw up my dual given airplane time. Do you guys log the sim as dual given, or do you just make an entry in the back of your logbook to document Sim dual given?

Thanks
 
If you want to document it and keep track of it, then do it anywhere you want.

What I would do is use one of the blank columns in my logbook and just keep it there.
 
BoilerPilot2007 said:
The Frasca 142 is a flight training device (FTD), not a simulator. Just be careful.
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I did 40hrs in the Frasca for my instrument training, and my instructor logged it in the sim column, and for my 8710 for my instrument rating 40hrs was put in the sim portion and it was fine. It gets logged as FTD-Frasca, but the time goes in the simulator column. I don't know why its not considered a sim, but someone told me you can use the frasca for instrument currency. As long as its logged as FTD-Frasca I assume its legit since anyone looking at it will see what type of device it is.
 
Yes you can use an approved simulator for instrument currency. I dont personally log any sim time unless its for currency. If you are going to log approaches, ect you need either an IGI or CFII to sign your logbook to make the approaches, holds, tracking, ect. to be legit. You wouldnt log it as dual recd, its just a manifest saying you actually performed those approaches and procedures. I believe the reason the Frasca is not considered a "simulator" is because it lacks motion.
 
Even some "sims" with motion can't be logged as "simulator" time. There are a whole set of requirements that must be met in order to consider a device a "simulator."

The only reason I have a separate FTD column, is because I have some "simulator" time as well. Just be careful you don't mix the two further along in your career :)

Got to keep everything kosher!
 
Airdale said:
I conduct a lot of instrument training in a Frasca 142 Sim device. I log in the students logbook under the Simulator column and dual received column, thats it. It doesn't count towards their total time. .....
Thanks
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Why woudn't it count for TT? I know for a fact that you can use 50 hours for the Commercial (pt61). Yes, it would not count as fligth time per se, but it would indeed count for TT?

Maybe we are mixing words?

Anyone?????
 
JEP said:
Why woudn't it count for TT? I know for a fact that you can use 50 hours for the Commercial (pt61). Yes, it would not count as fligth time per se, but it would indeed count for TT?

Maybe we are mixing words?

Anyone?????
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It can count towards their total time only for the Commercial and Instrument ratings. I do not put the sim time in their total time column because its not *flight* time, and if I did include it, then their totals wouldn't match up. I log their sim time, and then on the 8710 just put total FTD or sim time in the respective block.
 
There is a great debate about putting sim time in your total time column. I personally would keep it seperate. You dont want to explain it at any interview. Let the interviewer tell you that your sim counts as TT.
 
meritflyer said:
There is a great debate about putting sim time in your total time column. I personally would keep it seperate. You dont want to explain it at any interview. Let the interviewer tell you that your sim counts as TT.
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When it comes to completing my ratings, you can be damn sure I will count that sim time as TT. There is no debate about that. Once my ratings are complete, that may very well change.

Again, maybe we are mixing words, but in my logbook there may be 170 of flight time and 30 hours of sim time. There is no column that says TT. If you add the flight time and sim time, you would have the 200TT.
 
For finishing up ratings, I would agree. But for the sake of just playing in the sim to up your total time (adding your sim time to your TT) is the great debate. Even the LAS FSDO has had to weigh in on some cases about adding your sim to your TT.
 
I wouldn't put the sim/FTD time in my TT column just because it will probably cause problems down the road. When you get to fill out your 8710 for your comm ride just add it in on that form.

As far as logging it as Dual Given if you are instructing your student in the sim/ftd, I do it. I figure I am doing the same things as I would in the air. Dual given doesn't have to mean you are also logging PIC. I guess kinda like being a II and sitting in the back seat with two students up front. Not smart, but you can do it.

I can see an argument for it either way but but not from the FAA. At least not that I have seen.
 
JEP said:
Again, maybe we are mixing words, but in my logbook there may be 170 of flight time and 30 hours of sim time. There is no column that says TT. If you add the flight time and sim time, you would have the 200TT.
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Question: Is the "total time" column in your logbook a total "flight time" column or a total "pilot time" column. That's the difference. Sim time counts toward total "pilot time" but never total "flight time." (BTW, I've never even seen a logbook that had a column for "pilot time.")

BTW, that commercial certificate application doesn't mean anything in terms of the columns where you log the time. The ability to use sim or FTD time as "Credit .. toward the total aeronautical experience requirements for an airplane or powered-lift rating" [61.129(i)] does not magically change sim time into flight time. There are a bunch of those substitutions Part 61.

On Airdale's original question, it depends. This is one that's probably more complicated than it should be. Part of the problem is that the FAR doesn't define "dual given."

We're back to that "pilot time" vs "flight time" thing. Giving instruction in a sim or FTD =is= "pilot time" but is =not= "flight time." Both are valuable. The value of logable flight time is obvious; but as I mentioned earlier, "pilot time" counts toward ATP requirements, so, if you do a lot of it, you probably want to keep track.

How you keep track is a practical bookkeeping problem, not a regulatory one. The key is to keep that "sim given" in a way that you don't confuse it with the "flight given" entries on an 8710 or if someone asks for "flight training given."
 
Jonesberuitchamp said:
Question for the cfis logging dual given in a sim. Why?
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If I have to sign the student's logbook for something then I will put it in my logbook too so I have a record of it. Perhaps down the road the FAA comes asking about someone's currency and you can look in your logbook and see that you did X amount of approaches with that guy in the sim on such and such date? It is all teaching experience to me and I just like to keep track of it plus it doesn't hurt anything.

That being said, your next question could be why don't you log ground instruction where you sit behind a desk and talk about chord lines and stuff? That just doesn't seem right I guess.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Question: Is the "total time" column in your logbook a total "flight time" column or a total "pilot time" column. That's the difference. Sim time counts toward total "pilot time" but never total "flight time." (BTW, I've never even seen a logbook that had a column for "pilot time.")

.....
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Total "Flight Time". So unless I am missing something, in regards to the pt Commercial..... "Flight Time" of 200 plus 50 Sim time (pilot time) is fine for the 250 hr Comm Requirements?

And when the time comes for filling out the job application TT would jsut be "Flight Time"? How would you count any sim time at that point? I always see on job postings..... xxx hrs of sim time allowed. Just curious.
 
JEP said:
Total "Flight Time". So unless I am missing something, in regards to the pt Commercial..... "Flight Time" of 200 plus 50 Sim time (pilot time) is fine for the 250 hr Comm Requirements?
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Yes.

And when the time comes for filling out the job application TT would just be "Flight Time"? How would you count any sim time at that point? I always see on job postings..... xxx hrs of sim time allowed. Just curious.
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I'm leaving this part to others. I'm not a career pilot so I've never even seen an aviation job application. But I think it should be fairly clear from a specific application whether they are asking for pilot or flight time.
 
JEP said:
Total "Flight Time". So unless I am missing something, in regards to the pt Commercial..... "Flight Time" of 200 plus 50 Sim time (pilot time) is fine for the 250 hr Comm Requirements?

And when the time comes for filling out the job application TT would jsut be "Flight Time"? How would you count any sim time at that point? I always see on job postings..... xxx hrs of sim time allowed. Just curious.
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Thats like you can use up to 30 or up to 20 hrs of sim time towards the instrument rating depending on whether or not it was conducted under part 142. Its not counting towards TT, but for that specific rating, it can reduce the TT required.

On a job application, if there is a column that asks about "sim" time, then put it in, otherwise don't count sim time towards anything.

I think I'm going to start logging the sim time in the back of my logbook on the remarks pages. I give each student 40hrs of Sim time towards their instrument, so I can just make one entry saying: Students name - 40hrs dual given towards instrument rating. Or something along those lines. I don't want sim dual given an airplane dual given to be confused, but I still want to keep a log of it for what Tim stated.
 
I would not log FTD time as 'dual received' in your students log book. Dual received is for FLIGHT TIME. By definition, you cannot log time in a sim/FTD without an instructor present, so 'dual received' is redundant and can cause problems later. The same goes for logging sim/FTD time as 'total time', don't do it. Just because you can use the time for a certificate or rating in place of flight time, does not mean you should log it as such.

If you are an instructor and are worried about keeping track of FTD time you have given your students, just use one of those extra columns in your log book and make a 'FTD Given' column. Then you can keep track of what you did which each student. It might also come in handy some day as some places want a certain amount of IFR experience when they hire instructors. Some flight schools will count FTD instruction towards this (this is usually for foreign airline contracts).
 
JEP said:
And when the time comes for filling out the job application TT would jsut be "Flight Time"? How would you count any sim time at that point? I always see on job postings..... xxx hrs of sim time allowed. Just curious.
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No, it would not magically morph into 'flight time', you still have 200 hours of flight time and 50 hours of FTD time. Just because there in an exemption in the FARs that allows you to count 50 hrs of FTD time towards the commercial does not mean it counts as time in an airplane. If an employer ask for sim/FTD time, then write in on the application, if they don't then they don't care.

For some reason pilots with low time always get hung up on stuff like this when it is rather straight forward. You just have to remember that 50 hours here or there doesn't mean much. In almost any job you will get, you will probably be flying 50 hours or more per month, so why screw up your log book trying to make it look like you have something you don't?
 
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