Logging Cross Country Time?

MidlifeFlyer said:
The FAA Chief Counsel has already said that only the pilot who does the takeoff and landing may log the time as cross country. The opinions (one specifically about safety pilots) dealt specifically with counting cross countries toward certificate and rating requirements. Whether/how it would apply to "generic" point-to-point cross countries being counted toward Part 135 requirements is anyone's guess.
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I have wondered if this applies to CFI's as well. The CFI rarely has the controls on takeoff or landing.
 
mat said:
The safety pilot did not do a takeoff and landing. If the pilots switched flying pilot and did their own takeoffs and landings, then it would seem to meet the requirements. .
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I doubt it. I wouldn't bother to try to find a loophole here. IMO, this isn't a case of the Chief Counsel looking at a reg and interpreting the legalese. Rather, it's a case of starting with a policy decision - that safety pilots (and perhaps pilots in general) should no be able to double up on cross country time - and writing the interpretation to fit.
 
I suspect that, if asked, the FAA would agree that CFIs may log cross country time when giving dual. But that's only a guess.
 
mojo6911 said:
It doesn't seem to agree with their stance that the person logging XC must be the sole manipulator of the controls.
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True. But it does agree on their stance on other CFI issues. Like a CFI is "performing" and instrument approach doesn't by a student even though the SIC is a "real" multi-crew is not. Like I said before, I think this is more about policy than legal interpretation.
 
A flight instructor is a completely different scenario than a safety pilot. A safety pilot is making sure that the guy under the hood doesn't crash into something. As soon as the hood comes off the safety pilot becomes a passenger. A flight instructor is never a passenger*. While an instructor may do an entire flight without touching the controls, they are PIC for the whole flight, as they can, and may jump on the the controls at any time from engine start to shutdown. I've known some instructors to log their student's landings (and probably rightfully so) because of this. Most choose not to (if anything, simply for the sake of simplifying logbooking). If it helps to think of it this way, this is part of why the CFI is a completely seperate ticket.

*(Therefore, neither pilot has to be current to carry passengers...)
 
Hammertime said:
I've known some instructors to log their student's landings (and probably rightfully so) because of this.
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Definitely wrongfully so unless they somehow indicate that it doesn't count toward their currency. The reg on landing currency says "sole manipulator" and that's exactly what it means. (http://tinyurl.com/cwb8g4e).
While an instructor may do an entire flight without touching the controls, they are PIC for the whole flight,
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Be careful with that statement. Remember that a CFI does not need to have a medical so long as not acting as PIC or required crew). So while CFIs may have PIC-like responsibility during an instructional flight, they might not be the "real" PIC in a variety of situations.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Definitely wrongfully so unless they somehow indicate that it doesn't count toward their currency. The reg on landing currency says "sole manipulator" and that's exactly what it means. (http://tinyurl.com/cwb8g4e).
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I stand corrected, thanks! I've always thought that it seemed to be shady to log a student's landings (never have myself).

MidlifeFlyer said:
Be careful with that statement. Remember that a CFI does not need to have a medical so long as not acting as PIC or required crew). So while CFIs may have PIC-like responsibility during an instructional flight, they might not be the "real" PIC in a variety of situations.
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While technically correct, this situation almost never happens (and doesn't apply to the OP's question). So, when the CFI is acting as PIC in conjunction with the student, they log the entire flight, including X/C time.
 
So
Hammertime said:
I stand corrected, thanks! I've always thought that it seemed to be shady to log a student's landings (never have myself).



While technically correct, this situation almost never happens (and doesn't apply to the OP's question). So, when the CFI is acting as PIC in conjunction with the student, they log the entire flight, including X/C time.
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I've been logging every landing that my students do - I also stand corrected, I suppose. But personally I've been acting PIC on every instructional flight I've done (I only have 180 or so dual given) and don't feel the least bit shady about it (logging XC for 135 mins to an airport 2 miles away is far more shady IMO). So you mean to tell me that when I'm boxing the controls on a 5 hour total time test pilot, making sure he doesn't snap the engine mounts on the tomahawk during landing, I can't log that as a landing?! That's almost insulting!
 
sounddoc said:
So
I've been logging every landing that my students do - I also stand corrected, I suppose.
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You can log all the landings if you like, you just can't count them for currency unless you were the sole manipulator. I would specify in the remarks section which landings were sole manipulator so you can keep an accurate log.


sounddoc said:
don't feel the least bit shady about it (logging XC for 135 mins to an airport 2 miles away is far more shady IMO).
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Not shady at all. 61.1 is pretty clear.

sounddoc said:
So you mean to tell me that when I'm boxing the controls on a 5 hour total time test pilot, making sure he doesn't snap the engine mounts on the tomahawk during landing, I can't log that as a landing?! That's almost insulting!
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Yup.
 
sounddoc said:
So
So you mean to tell me that when I'm boxing the controls on a 5 hour total time test pilot, making sure he doesn't snap the engine mounts on the tomahawk during landing, I can't log that as a landing?! That's almost insulting!
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Yep, I only count one if I did the full approach. If I helped with the landing it is theirs. Afterall who cares about landings it not like a company is going to say "O I see you have XXX number of landings and so and so has XXXX number of landings no job for you!"
 
Der_Meister said:
Yep, I only count one if I did the full approach. If I helped with the landing it is theirs. Afterall who cares about landings it not like a company is going to say "O I see you have XXX number of landings and so and so has XXXX number of landings no job for you!"
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It's more of a custodial issue in my logbook at this point. I'm not worried about hiring etc... I'm going to have to average / fudge that particular statistic now going back 7 months and I hate doing that. On the upside, I just gained a bunch of XC time! :bounce:
 
Right, thanks for the responses, I understand how x-country time applies when it comes to rating and part 61 which is what some of you responded to, I was more curious how it applies to part 135 point to point cross countries or for that matter ATP cross country which doesn't require a landing. Thanks again
 
sounddoc said:
So

I've been logging every landing that my students do - I also stand corrected, I suppose. But personally I've been acting PIC on every instructional flight I've done (I only have 180 or so dual given) and don't feel the least bit shady about it (logging XC for 135 mins to an airport 2 miles away is far more shady IMO). So you mean to tell me that when I'm boxing the controls on a 5 hour total time test pilot, making sure he doesn't snap the engine mounts on the tomahawk during landing, I can't log that as a landing?! That's almost insulting!
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mojo6911 said:
You can log all the landings if you like, you just can't count them for currency unless you were the sole manipulator. I would specify in the remarks section which landings were sole manipulator so you can keep an accurate log.
Yup.
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I log any landing as mine that I had to put a positive control input into (other than a gentle nudge). At that point I am the sole manipulator of the controls, the student is just along for the ride.

Based on the interpretation you give above you are not logging any landings in the student logbook until right before solo.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
My question is this: do those who try to find ways to log as many student landings as they can really have so much difficulty maintaining their own currency?
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I'm not trying to collect landings, I've just been logging them incorrectly it seems, so I'm griping more about having to go back months in my logbook to correct this. But yeah, I do have to think about my currency now. I'm a part time instructor, and can have a few students a week only sometimes.
 
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