Logging Commercial training question

centralhome

Well-Known Member
I do some freelance instruction and I usally use the Jeppeson sylabus as a guide line to go by. But I have a student that is getting his Commercial rating and already has about 2000 hours, so he has the complex training, and Instrument training already. When we do all the maneuvers that are required, there is not enough space in the logbook to put everything we have practiced without using a few lines. My question is, could I just write that we did "all maneuvers under FAR 61.127(b)(1)"?

Thanks for any replies
 
I wouldn't do that. My reason is a series of NTSB cases that, even though you can always find some way of saying your situation is different, suggest that collective entries is not a very good idea. Besides, did you really do "all maneuvers under FAR 61.127(b)(1)" in each lesson?

There's also no rule that says you have to use only one line per logbook entry. Subject to your student's anality quotient, use what you need.

What I've done to split the difference is to keep a record of what required maneuvers have been logged. That way to satisfy the requirement for the certificate that certain things be logged, I can limit later entries to things that have not been logged before.

Last, consider that many Part 141 schools that use a formal syllabus simply write in "Jepp Lesson 8." I'm not too certain whether the practice goes over too well everywhere, but I don't see anything in the rules that suggests that you can't refer to an outside document in that way, although I'd limit it to published syllabi.
 
Just use multiple lines as it is a log book. It is there to log things.

When it comes to writing stuff like "Jepp Lesson 1" and such I don't know. MidlifeFlyer did say only published syllabi, but even then I would write everything down as it would be a better history of the flight and these published syllabi do change over time as well. I just prefer to write everything out. If no room in the remarks I just use the entire next line.
 
My reason is a series of NTSB cases that, even though you can always find some way of saying your situation is different, suggest that collective entries is not a very good idea.

Do you have some case numbers that would illustrate this point?

Last, consider that many Part 141 schools that use a formal syllabus simply write in "Jepp Lesson 8."

Not clear to me how different that is from referencing the areas of operation of the Fars. Our flight school pushed the "Cessna Lesson 8" idea, as did the Cessna training program, because they claimed it provided liability protection. I thought the Cessna "scare training" was a bit self-serving.
 
Do you have some case numbers that would illustrate this point?
The only one I have at all handy is the somewhat infamous "OK to Solo" case at http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/4634.pdf which sort of illustrates the "you can always find some way of saying your situation is different." It's one of those times I pick up an "educated impression" from reading rather than hang my hat on specifics.

Not clear to me how different that is from referencing the areas of operation of the Fars. Our flight school pushed the "Cessna Lesson 8" idea, as did the Cessna training program, because they claimed it provided liability protection. I thought the Cessna "scare training" was a bit self-serving.

A reference to a syllabus will be a reference to specific maneuvers covered, not gross categories like "the areas of operation for a commercial pilot with an ASEL rating" - which is what you get with "all maneuvers under FAR 61.127(b)(1)".

Even if you limit it to subparts of 61.27(b)(1), I really think that a reference to "lazy 8s, steep turns, and chandelles" is superior to "performance maneuvers" (whether written in or by referring to a syllabus) - which is all you would get with a reference to "the maneuvers in FAR 61.127(b)(1)(vi) even if the latter might be technically sufficient from an FAR standpoint.

I don't think I'm much of an alarmist when it comes to liability and 709 rides, but I do believe in keeping good records of instruction and IMO, references to "we covered everything" or categories of tasks don't fit my personal definition.
 
Just use multiple lines as it is a log book. It is there to log things.

When it comes to writing stuff like "Jepp Lesson 1" and such I don't know. MidlifeFlyer did say only published syllabi, but even then I would write everything down as it would be a better history of the flight and these published syllabi do change over time as well.
That's a very good point. I've never seen it done that way but adding the publication date or revision number might help a bit with that part.
 
Just to add. I am a part 61 independent CFI. In addtion to logging the instruction in the logbook (where I often use short hand to make it fit), I use lesson sheets and store them in 1" binders. Each student has a 1" binder with a section for quizzes, debriefs and lesson sheets. If a question ever comes up (such as after an accident), I can pull out the 1" binder and show all the maneuvers accomplished along with pre-solo written and stage exams.
 
On my first CFI lesson my instructor told me, "buy a fine point pen and learn to write small." By following his advice I can normally make three lines of writing in one remarks box of a logbook. I list all the maneuvers we did and have yet to need more than one line in a log book.
 
Thanks for the replies. I guess I will use multiple lines.

Good idea. Had a prop strike at my school and doing that in both the student's log book and the instructor's log book saved us a huge headache with the FAA.

That's a very good point. I've never seen it done that way but adding the publication date or revision number might help a bit with that part.

Either that or keep all the different revisions with the student's names for reference if anything happened.
 
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