Logbook entry with Sim time

Tazman282

New Member
I was wondering how exactly I will log my CRJ sim time when I get in that course next semester. It is a class 3 sim and I want to know if it goes towards total time or not? It is considered a FTD but does it matter with what type the FTD is classified as?

I know some pilots that log the 172 ground trainers toward total time and some that don't but is the normal routine?

Is there an FAR that states this?

Thanks for your help...
 

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
Remember, there are flight simulators and flight training devices. A Frasca-type setup is considered more of a FTD and a level C or D thingy is considered a simulator.

But I might be wrong. Any check airmen left after the poop fest last week want to answer?
 

IrishSheepdog

Sitting in the median
All sim goes in sim. Level D, log the approaches and landings. Nothing else... I was told to log my D under sim instrument, however. But didn't.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
Watch out for the "total time" thing. In a logbook it usually means "total flight time" in which case the answer is that you can't log it.

See if my personal FAQ helps:

******************************
Q: Can I log simulator or FTD time to my "total duration of flight" column. Is this right?

A: The short answer is No. An FTD session is not a "flight". The confusion comes about because there are a number of different definitions here. And "total time" =isn't= one of them.

"Total Time" isn't really defined in the FAR. When the term is used, it's not alone. For example, the 61.159 aeronautical experience requirements for the ATP include "at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot" So there's really no such thing as "TT" standing by itself.

It's usually combined with either "pilot time" or "flight time". And there is a definite difference between these two terms.

"Pilot time" is defined in 61.1(b)(12) specifically includes simulator time.
==============================
that time in which a person -
(i) Serves as a required pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device; or
(iii) Gives training as an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.
==============================

On the other hand, "flight time" is defined in FAR 1 as
==============================
Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing; or
==============================

That doesn't include simulators. Even the best of them are still not "aircraft"

The logbooks I've seen don't have a column for "total time" or "total pilot time". They do have a column for total "flight" time or "Total duration of flight" and sim or FTD time doesn't belong there. Want to track total pilot time? Add a column and go ahead. It counts for something.

******************************
 

sorrygottarunway

Well-Known Member
so during my IFR lessons when we go into the PCATD, I can log only total duration, dual instruction received, as well as FTD time?
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
so during my IFR lessons when we go into the PCATD, I can log only total duration, dual instruction received, as well as FTD time?

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's start off with a small correction. "Total duration" in the logbook usually means "total duration of flight" which is what you need to total for most certificates or ratings. Flight Simulator and FTD time do =not= count. For example, the commercial certificate requires least "250 hours of flight time". None of that can be in anything other than some kind of aircraft.

Now to the PCATD. The PCATD is a different creature. It is neither a "flight simulator" not a "flight training device". It falls under 61.4(c) which authorizes the FAA to approve devices other than simulators and FTDs. So time in a PCATD is not even "pilot time"

What a PCATD can be used for and what can be logged is the subject of AC 61-126 - Qualification And Approval Of Personal Computer-Based Aviation Training Devices. In general, they can be used to partially substitute for requirements for a certificate or rating that can be done in a flight simulator or FTD. For example,

==============================
7. ACCEPTABILITY OF PCATD's FOR USE UNDER PART 61
a. To be acceptable for use in part 61, a PCATD must:
(1) Be capable of providing training in all elements for which it will be used. Those elements should be specified in a curriculum.
(2) Meet the description and criteria established in this AC.
b. The PCATD should be used in a curriculum which will provide for:
(1) A scope and content which should be in general compliance with part 141.
(2) Not more than 10 hours of flight instruction in a PCATD in lieu of 10 of the 20 hours of flight instruction allowed for a flight simulator or FTD. The 20-hour allowance for a flight simulator or an FTD and the 10-hour allowance for PCATD's are not additive. If a PCATD is used for the maximum of 10 hours, that 10 hours shall be a part of the 20-hour maximum allowance for a flight simulator or flight training device.
(3) Instructional materials for flight events.
(4) An outline of stage (phase) checks and criterion levels of performance.
==============================

Frankly, since the PCATD is not a simulator or FTD and can't be counted toward some things that a simulator or FTD can, I'd log PCATD time in its own column.
 

Tazman282

New Member
I really don't understand why you wouldn't be able to log the level D sim time if you can get a type rating and go off to an airline and fly that plane easy as that. I understand there is a difference but with today's sims there is not much of a difference. But anyway thanks for all the info. I appreciate the time you took to write all of that out. Thanks
 

sorrygottarunway

Well-Known Member
yes, I had the same thoughts about level D stuff.

Goshdarnit, I'm just gonna log the time in the PCATD as dual received. Heck, I'm not gonna pay $40 an hour if its not loggable.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Darnit! and I thought it was worth my time and money!

[/ QUOTE ]It is if it makes you a better pilot.[ QUOTE ]
So in other words, I cannot log the dual time received?

[/ QUOTE ] of course you can. You can log

"Not more than 10 hours of flight instruction in a PCATD in lieu of 10 of the 20 hours of flight instruction allowed for a flight simulator or FTD."

Whether or not you log more than that in the dual column is part of a different question: should I bother logging things that don't count for anything and may have to separate out later?
 

sorrygottarunway

Well-Known Member
good point...

I believe I am gonna make a separate column, have 10 hours for SIM time counted, and the rest as PCATD time.

And the sim is awfully helpful, its nice to be able to pause it and write things out on the nearby chalkboard. My instructor gets ticked though when I shut off the "master" when we pause the sim, so the money meter stops running... I mean it costs $40 an hour, plus $40 for the instructor. That is a bit steep, considering the machine is old, and probably has already paid for itself many times over. 40/hr for electricity?
 

Cosmo1999

Well-Known Member
you can use an FTD or a sim to count up to 50 hours of your 250 TT for commercial(61.129(i)) However its really pointless to log it in total time because the airlines will just want to know what your total flight time is excluding simulators anyway. You can also count up to 20 hours of sim time toward your instrument if your part 61 or 40% to 50% of the required time or somethin like that if your part 141.. However experience is best gained in the airplane. I knew one student that spent 50 hours in an FTD to save $$ for his commercial and it really showed when he went to do his CFI.. Its one thing to spend 10 or 20 hours but its quite another to spend 50 hours just puttin around in the sim
 
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