LOC approach on an ILS

Dazzler

Dazzler

Well-Known Member
Let's say you're shooting some practice approaches and you want to shoot a LOC approach on a fully functional ILS (i.e both localizer and glide slope are operational, but you're going to pretend that the glide slope is out)

Do you need to request the ILS approach, and just fly it as LOC only, or do you request a LOC approach, so that ATC aren't surprised when you deviate from the glide slope?
 
It's the same approach, so request the ILS. You can tell ATC you'll be flying the LOC, but odds are they won't care. At least the Orlando controllers are like that. Either that or just tell the tower (if there is one) that you're using the LOC appraoch in lieu of the GS.
 
I always tell them, especially if I'm doing a LOC only approach in IMC. Like Kellwolf said, they probably won't care, but depending on the construction of the approach, and if there is a final approach controller, they may get a little concerned if you drop way below glideslope once you reach the marker to get to down to MDA.
 
If you're flying a LOC-only, tell them that. DO NOT request an ILS and then go fly a LOC approach. The ILS and LOC are NOT the same approach. They're two different approaches that use some of the same equipment, that's it. In a training environment in good weather, they may not say anything (although they should, and are probably supposed to), but I guarantee in the real world/IMC if you request the ILS and fly a LOC approach, they'll be saying something to you!
 
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If you're flying a LOC-only, tell them that. DO NOT request an ILS and then go fly a LOC approach. The ILS and LOC are NOT the same approach. They're two different approaches that use some of the same equipment, that's it. In a training environment in good weather, they may not say anything (although they should, and are probably supposed to), but I guarantee in the real world/IMC if you request the ILS and fly a LOC approach, they'll be saying something to you!

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What will they be saying?

They are only different approaches if they are different PUBLISHED approaches.

If you are flying an ILS lets say the Redding RDD ILS 34 and the glideslope is out of service, then what happens is that you cleared for the "RDD ILS 34 localizer only approach". When this happens to us in "real world/IMC", often the controllers simply said "cleared for the RDD ILS 34 approach." Its up to US to know that the GS is out based on ATIS and NOTAM. In FACT, there have been times that the Center controller might not even know about this!!

This initially confused my green freight-flying brain last autumn, but in hindsight it makes sense: if ATC clears you for a PUBLISHED approach, there better be a page in your little booky-booky with that approach. If ATC says "Cleared for the RDD LOC 34 approach", there is gonna be some confused folks.

My Redding example has no Loc 34 approach. Other places, like say Reno have both ILS and LOC approaches published.

I'd be interested in any input from the controller types here...

and EatSleep... hows freight going so far?
 
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What will they be saying?

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Well, probably something along the lines of, "yo, why are you going below the GS? You were cleared for an ILS to a runway with a functioning GS."
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Not that I would know from an experience during my instructing days, or anything.
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If you are flying an ILS lets say the Redding RDD ILS 34 and the glideslope is out of service, then what happens is that you cleared for the "RDD ILS 34 localizer only approach". When this happens to us in "real world/IMC", often the controllers simply said "cleared for the RDD ILS 34 approach." Its up to US to know that the GS is out based on ATIS and NOTAM. In FACT, there have been times that the Center controller might not even know about this!!

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Yeah, I know, but Dazzler (if I'm not mistaken), was talking about doing a LOC approach after being cleared for an ILS (assuming a functioning glideslope, I believe he said). I'm just saying, they're two different procedures and should be treated as such, IMO at least. Incidentally, I've never been cleared for an ILS with an inop GS without the controller saying, "N1234, cleared ILS, GS out, runway 36."

MikeD....what say you?
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and EatSleep... hows freight going so far?

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It's awesome, I love it. Can't see myself doing anything else right now. Had a fun night Friday night, flew all night in ice, snow, rain, fog, and thunderstorms with a broken autopilot. Did 4 approaches, all down close to mins except the first one. Last approach of the trip (at my alternate, couldn't get into home), at 3am Saturday morning, had to hand-fly an ILS and it was VV001 with 1/2 sm vis in rain and mist. That's the first time that I for real saw the approach lights and had to go down to 100' above TDZE before I could see the threshold. Wooo!
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I couldn't believe I got in. I was was planning on having to retreat to a second alternate that I had in mind because they had better weather and I didn't have enough fuel to shoot approaches all night.
 
EatSleep,

That kind of flying gets in your blood doesnt it? It used to scare me, and sometimes still does... but often when I am flying in that kind of crap and I land at mins... I drive home looking back up at the WX and call my IFR students just to go back up INTO it. Its crazy.

I understand what your saying about th eLOC thing. But, I guess what I am saying is when you get ""N1234, cleared ILS, GS out, runway 36." the approach you are being cleared for is NOT a different approach as published. Just your mins are different... I think you and I are really saying the same thing.
 
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Just your mins are different... I think you and I are really saying the same thing.

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Yeah, I think so too. I know it's on the same plate, I'm just saying it's not the same in terms of configuration, mins, and how you fly it. I know I personally treat them much differently. On an ILS with a GS, I can put in flaps 10 and fly the thing at 160, then go to flight idle when I break out and land in the touchdown zone no problem. I fly a LOC approach totally different- Slower, more flaps, calculate a VDP, time for the missed, etc.

Now that I've gotten this thread off on a tangent...
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If there's a functioning GS, but you plan on doing a LOC anyways, just let ATC know so they don't get freaked- especially if for whatever reason (training, equipment, whatever), you're doing it in IMC.
 
i agree.

here at Redding, we hear the magic words "Radar services terminated, contact tower" usually way before the FAF. After that, HECK, I could whip out the RDD NBB 34 approach plate and fly that.
 
On a similar (but different) note when circling to land, are you shooting a LOC or GS approach? I've always been taught (and taught my students) that when doing a circling approach off of an ILS to follow the GS down to cirlcing mins and then commence the cirlce. However, I was flying with a military pilot (KC135 I think) and he said that it is a non precision approach (the circle) so you should use the LOC. He flew it by dropping down to the circling MDA and then trucking in to a visual point and circling from there. From what I have seen it can been done either way, but was wondering if there was on correct way to do it.

Ethan
 
I disagree... some airports have a LOC approach and an ILS approach on two different plates. An ILS approach is the same published procedure regardless of whether you are going to circle, use gs-out mins, or do the full approach.

A LOC approach doesn't even exist unless there is a procedure (published plate) for it. So asking for the LOC approach to an airport with only an ILS is not correct. You would have to ask for the ILS.

To prove what I am saying if you shoot the ILS at an airport where the GS is out, you will still be cleared for the ILS. NOT cleared for the LOC because it either doesn't exist or is a totally different procedure.
 
BobDuck,

I would say that you are teaching the correct way. My opinion, but I only drive a CE-402. Any FAR/ AIM sleuths care to add to this?
 
But if the GS goes out, it becomes a LOC approach, no? All you do is use the stepdown altitudes listed, or if non fly down to the LOC MDA altitude. I was always told that if a GS goes out you go missed and if its the only approach available that the ILS approach becomes a LOC and you fly it as such..
 
No it's still the 'ILS approach'. The name on the plate doesn't change. You just use loc-only minimums. Just like if you were going to use circling mins for the VOR runway 25 approach. You would still ask for the VOR approach.

Again, some airports have both a published ILS and a published LOC. If the GS goes out and you want to shoot the ILS, go for it. But don't ask for the LOC because atc will expect you to fly something totally different.
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On a similar (but different) note when circling to land, are you shooting a LOC or GS approach? I've always been taught (and taught my students) that when doing a circling approach off of an ILS to follow the GS down to circling mins and then commence the circle.

[/ QUOTE ]You are correct. All you are doing is shooting the ILS to circling minimums instead of DA.

Look at the chart, if it wasn't still an ILS (with GS), there would be no circling minimums under the ILS column - they would only appear in the LOC only column or on a separate chart,
 
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To prove what I am saying if you shoot the ILS at an airport where the GS is out, you will still be cleared for the ILS. NOT cleared for the LOC because it either doesn't exist or is a totally different procedure.

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Right, BUT I'm trying to say two things:

-I've never been cleared for an ILS to an airport w/ the GS out without being advised of that during the approach clearance by ATC (even if it was by center at an uncontrolled airport). Likewise, say you want to do a LOC approach to an airport with an ILS (no seperate published LOC procedure) and the GS is operating. If you request the Localizer approach, ATC will know that you're planning on flying the approach as a non-precision. If you request the ILS, they'll be expecting you to follow the GS down.

-Secondly, they're not the same approach just because they're printed on the same piece of paper.
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-Secondly, they're not the same approach just because they're printed on the same piece of paper.
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Sure they are! The name on the top of the plate doesn't change, does it
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I guess I always thought it was just assumed that if there wasn't a GS available for whatever reason on an ILS, then it was a "Localizer" approach regardless of what was printed on the top of the plate. Maybe I'm retarded tonight.

I think we're splitting hairs.
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ATC doesn't always do what is technically correct...

For example here in socal it is very common to be issued an altitude below the MEA while NOT on a radar vector.

You'll be flying in cruise and atc will tell you to descend and maintain 3000'. And the pilot will do so. How can you do this without being on a vector? Yet it happens every day.
 
If a glideslope goes out, YES I would go missed. But after that, you better be sure what to do next. At some places, there would be a published LOC approach you could do. at others, you could perhaps fly the same published approach using LOC only minimums. Or, yo umight have to swith published approaches or even go somewhere else..

Case in point:

Look at the approaches for Arcata, CA (go to myairplane.com or airnav.com or wherever to see the approaches)

If you are cleared for the ACV ILS 32 and you lose the GS, your out of luck. the LOC (GS Out) mins are listed as NA.

So...
this means you gotta pick a DIFFERENT published approach.

At Arcata, the alternative approach is the ILS/DME 32. THAT does have loc-only mins. But it also requires DME. So, maybe you dont have DME and cant do it.

I guess my point is that you simlpy cant have a rule of thumb in this case, and it ALL falls back on the PUBLISHED approaches for an airport, as EatSleep and I agreed.
 
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