lights, camera , action

[Chris_Ford]

Lights Camera Action sucks.

Finally. Where have you been!??!?!?!!

 

[Ralgha]

Not always!

Alright, should always be backed up with a printed checklist. At airlines they are, and airlines seem to be what people are comparing this thing to.

 

[SteveC]

Flows are always backed up with a printed checklist.

Not always!

Alright, should always be backed up with a printed checklist. At airlines they are, and airlines seem to be what people are comparing this thing to.

I think you're missing mtsu's point. Even the airlines do not back up every flow with a check list, only the important ones. As an example the flow for an altitude change may be something like:
a) set altitude alerter,
b) select vertical speed mode,
c) set desired vertical rate,
d) adjust power as required,
e) monitor altitude,
f) monitor airspeed,
g) verify altitude capture,
h) adjust power as required.

I'm thinking that there is probably not a checklist for that, even at the airlines.

 

[Ralgha]

I think you're missing mtsu's point. Even the airlines do not back up every flow with a check list, only the important ones. As an example the flow for an altitude change may be something like:
a) set altitude alerter,
b) select vertical speed mode,
c) set desired vertical rate,
d) adjust power as required,
e) monitor altitude,
f) monitor airspeed,
g) verify altitude capture,
h) adjust power as required.

I'm thinking that there is probably not a checklist for that, even at the airlines.

That's not a flow. There are a multitude of ways to change your altitude.

 

[SteveC]

That's not a flow. There are a multitude of ways to change your altitude.

All right, to be technical (this is Technical Talk forum after all ), what I spelled out is not a "flow", but a procedure. I suppose that the proper use of the term "flow" is a method of doing something (set-up or procedure) in a certain pattern, typically from one side of the panel to the other, or top to bottom, or from a certain sub-panel to another.

In my altitude-change example above I usually do parts of the procedure following a flow pattern. For example when I am the Pilot Flying I start at the top of the panel and hit VS mode on the A/P panel, move down to the power quadrant to adjust the power setting, and at the aft end of the pedestal I spin the wheel to dial in the vertical speed desired. Does that meet the definition of a "flow"? Or is there a definition that I'm missing?

The point that I was trying to work towards is that there are many "flow" patterns used in normal flying that do not have a checklist backup.

 

[mtsu_av8er]

Alright, should always be backed up with a printed checklist. At airlines they are, and airlines seem to be what people are comparing this thing to.

Airlines may be what everybodyis comparing this to. However, there's nothing saying that every flow even SHOULD be backed up with a checklist.

Raising the gear? Should that flow be backed up with a checklist?

Just curious. I'm not sure about airlines, because I've never flown for one. But, I still don't think that EVERY flow needs a checklist to back it up - if it did, then just use the checklist to begin with!

 

[Ralgha]

Airlines may be what everybodyis comparing this to. However, there's nothing saying that every flow even SHOULD be backed up with a checklist.

Raising the gear? Should that flow be backed up with a checklist?

Just curious. I'm not sure about airlines, because I've never flown for one. But, I still don't think that EVERY flow needs a checklist to back it up - if it did, then just use the checklist to begin with!

Raising the gear is not a flow either. It's one item, however, yes, it's on a checklist.

Flows are used because it's faster to run though a standard pattern of flipping switches than read and flip, read and flip. After setting everything up in the flow, the checklist is read to ensure nothing was missed.

 

[Ralgha]

All right, to be technical (this is Technical Talk forum after all ), what I spelled out is not a "flow", but a procedure. I suppose that the proper use of the term "flow" is a method of doing something (set-up or procedure) in a certain pattern, typically from one side of the panel to the other, or top to bottom, or from a certain sub-panel to another.

In my altitude-change example above I usually do parts of the procedure following a flow pattern. For example when I am the Pilot Flying I start at the top of the panel and hit VS mode on the A/P panel, move down to the power quadrant to adjust the power setting, and at the aft end of the pedestal I spin the wheel to dial in the vertical speed desired. Does that meet the definition of a "flow"? Or is there a definition that I'm missing?

The point that I was trying to work towards is that there are many "flow" patterns used in normal flying that do not have a checklist backup.

It could be considered a flow, but really a flow is a specifically designed order of items done at a specific time that is standardized by the operator and used by all pilots in the same way at the same time. The idea is that you do it in the same way everytime so you don't miss anything, and then it's backed up by a checklist to ensure that nothing really was missed. Most of the time, when someone refers to an airline "flow", that's what they're referring to.

 

[EatSleepFly]

Raising the gear? Should that flow be backed up with a checklist?

Like Ralgha said, it's not a flow, but yes, it should be backed up with a checklist and usually is in most airplanes. More important in some airplanes than others- as you could rip off the gear doors, or do damage to the hydraulic system if you simply flip the handle up and continue on your way without verifying that what was supposed to happen, did.

Besides, I'm sure you've flown with a student new to complex aircraft who forgot to retract the gear!

 

[SteveC]

...a flow is a specifically designed order of items done at a specific time that is standardized by the operator and used by all pilots in the same way at the same time.

See, now that is a new definition to me (bold added for emphasis). Today is another good day - I learned something new.

 

[Kingairer]

"Camera LIGHTS, LETS GO!"

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

That actually IS our company flow.






Ahhh, the infamous "To-do" list.

No. Sometimes (rarely) is a "to-do" step by step list. Other times is a "did list" to recheck a flow. Still other times it's a briefing list - a chunk of information where you quickly review the upcoming procedure, like taking the runway, especially when you fly different airplanes.

Not everyone is as perfect as those who eschew checklists, you know. Some of us actually manage to forget to turn on (or off) the boost pump or switch tanks in a Piper after flying a lot of Cessnas for a while.

Watch a 172 pilot having difficulties incorporating cowl flaps into the descent and pre-landing routine and chances are you'll be looking at a pilot who thinks checklists are unnecessary.

 

[mtsu_av8er]

Not everyone is as perfect as those who eschew checklists, you know. Some of us actually manage to forget to turn on (or off) the boost pump or switch tanks in a Piper after flying a lot of Cessnas for a while.

Nobody is perfect, and nobody is eschewing checklists. Just pointing out that not every thing has, or should have, a checklist.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Nobody is perfect, and nobody is eschewing checklists. Just pointing out that not every thing has, or should have, a checklist.

Although you mention the gear as an example of something that does not need a checklist. Strange as it may seem, I've known of people who have forgotten to =raise= the gear in a retract (they fly fixed gear most of the time) and sat their wondering why the airplane was so slow that day. And most published checklists for retracts =do= have a "gear-- retract" item at least to tell you whether gear or flaps come up first (it does differ in different airplanes).

People forget to turn on and off fuel pumps, carb heat, cowl flaps, move props to full forward, all sorts of things. New students carry around checklists for the most basic flight procedures until they have them ingrained.

Some folks add things to checklists that others would say are silly. I've seen students who have added - "Rollout - full crosswind correction" to help them remember not to neutralize the controls on touchdown in a crosswind landing. That may strike you as a checklist for "turn left" but considering that this is one of the most common errors pilots make in crosswind landings and probably leads to a bunch of accidents, is it really silly to have it?

What's "needed" and not needed in a checklist can be pretty personal.

 

[Kingairer]

To avoid; shun.

 

[mastermags]

I always added a couple of theatric quotes to make the checklist a little more complete (and still keep its theme =)

Curtains - Trim tabs, flaps set
Light
Camera - Transponder
Action - Mixture, Master, Fuel Pump
Showtime - Note time of departure