LEX Crash F/O blames passengers

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

No it couldn't if people are paying attention. Bugging the runway of departure prior to taxi(SOP now, did this even when I was flying single pilot freight), Verifying you are on the correct runway i.e. the only one with lights on, instrument markings, crosschecking hsi to make sure it is where it should be.

Your attitude is counterproductive to improving safety in airline operations. Did the pilots make mistakes? Of course. But no one is denying that. What we are doing is looking at all of the contributing factors. All accidents are the result of an accident chain. Breaking any link in the chain prevents the accident. The crew's failure to recognize that they were on the proper runway is but one link in the chain. Another link would be the understaffed condition of the ATC facilities. Another link would be the confusing runway setup. Another link would be the NOTAMs that weren't clear about the conditions of the taxiways and the lights. Another link would be the outdated Jeppesen 10-9 page. And on, and on, and on. This accident chain had countless links. Pilots should be concerned with identifying them and working on solutions rather than pointing fingers at a crew, one of whom paid with his life, and other of whom lost his leg and suffered irreparable brain damage and memory loss, not to mention the life-long psychological damage. What do you hope to accomplish by bashing the pilots? Aren't enough other people doing that already? Aren't the 21 people that are trying to profit off of a tragedy doing enough of that? Pilots should do better. We should be concerned with improving safety and identifying and solving contributing factors.

Does/Did Comair have verifying the runway on your Runway Items/Before TO check?

They do now, but they did not prior to this accident. Yet another link in the chain...

 

[jtrain609]

No it couldn't if people are paying attention. Bugging the runway of departure prior to taxi(SOP now, did this even when I was flying single pilot freight), Verifying you are on the correct runway i.e. the only one with lights on, instrument markings, crosschecking hsi to make sure it is where it should be.

Does/Did Comair have verifying the runway on your Runway Items/Before TO check?

I'll admit there are alot of things that can get you as a pilot, but this is not one of them when you add up all the ways you can prevent this. Maybe more people need to fly single pilot IFR for 3-4000 hours so they can fly a whole airplane and see the big picture as opposed to flying only half of the airplane.

Indeed sir, I see you've never made a mistake, and you don't realize how lucky you are to have not wound up in the same position that these poor SOB's did. It's funny that you say this is something that can't get pilots because there is so much out there to prevent you from doing so, but two fairly seasoned pilots proved otherwise and unlike you, I'll continue to look at ALL the links in the accident chain instead of just attacking the pilots.

I hope you continue to never make mistakes.

 

[SoCalAprch]

No it couldn't if people are paying attention. Bugging the runway of departure prior to taxi(SOP now, did this even when I was flying single pilot freight), Verifying you are on the correct runway i.e. the only one with lights on, instrument markings, crosschecking hsi to make sure it is where it should be.

Does/Did Comair have verifying the runway on your Runway Items/Before TO check?

I'll admit there are alot of things that can get you as a pilot, but this is not one of them when you add up all the ways you can prevent this. Maybe more people need to fly single pilot IFR for 3-4000 hours so they can fly a whole airplane and see the big picture as opposed to flying only half of the airplane.

Walter just because someone has flown 3-4000 hours of frieght doesn't make them gods gift to aviation. The most experienced pilots out there will make mistakes. Im sure you make mistakes and luckily enough they were small enough to not cause loss of life or bent metal. However I agree that the crew screwed up, I don't think anyone on here will tell you they didn't. If after every accident we went around going well he didn't do this, they were idiots and it will never happen to me then nothing would ever get solved. Yes the pilots took the wrong runway and attempted to take off from it. But what if they had two controllers in the tower monitoring the taxi and takeoff? It would have been averted. Thats all I am thinking. Yes they were at fault, but with the proper resources inside and outside the aircraft this thing could have been avoided. That is all...

 

[Patrick]

Wow, what ever happened to people being thankful? Granted, I wouldn't want to go through any of what he's gone through, but the guy is still alive, and if that's not something to be thankful for, I don't know what is.

I think he just might be better off dead....

I have no idea how I'd even begin to live with myself after being responsible (at the very least, in some way, shape, or form) for a disaster of this magnitude.

 

[Patrick]

I've met those types too - and yes, there are a lot of them. In fact, I would agree that most of the lawyers out there are egotistical pricks - but only a few of them are actual crooks. In defense of the FO's attorney, however, he's just protecting his client from 21 suits filed by equally crooked attorneys.

There is truth to both sides of this argument.

 

[WalterSobchak]

Indeed sir, I see you've never made a mistake, and you don't realize how lucky you are to have not wound up in the same position that these poor SOB's did. It's funny that you say this is something that can't get pilots because there is so much out there to prevent you from doing so, but two fairly seasoned pilots proved otherwise. Unlike you, I'll continue to look at ALL the links in the accident chain instead of just attacking the pilots.

I hope you continue to never make mistakes.

Its not about not making mistakes. It's about not making mistakes that will kill you. Every one make mistakes ie leaving the transponder off, mising a hand off, etc. Its the big stuff. Yes there is a chain. Yes there are a lot of things that could have prevented that accident. My point is pilot can't be robot and put on the blinders and go through the motions. This isn't accounting. If they wanted unmanned vehicles they could have that. Pilots are still in the cockpit to think. Because sometimes all the checklists in the world can't make you think. Think what could kill me every time you are in a critical phase of flight etc. Where do you put thinking in the chain?

 

[aloft]

WOW, just wow!!! No offense to any lawyers on the boards, but most lawyers are scum of the earth!!! I cannot stand lawyers!!!!!!!!

I used to think this too, mistakenly. In point of fact, MBAs are the scum of the earth; lawyers are simply a necessary evil against the greedy scourge of MBAs.

 

[WalterSobchak]

Walter just because someone has flown 3-4000 hours of frieght doesn't make them gods gift to aviation. The most experienced pilots out there will make mistakes. Im sure you make mistakes and luckily enough they were small enough to not cause loss of life or bent metal. However I agree that the crew screwed up, I don't think anyone on here will tell you they didn't. If after every accident we went around going well he didn't do this, they were idiots and it will never happen to me then nothing would ever get solved. Yes the pilots took the wrong runway and attempted to take off from it. But what if they had two controllers in the tower monitoring the taxi and takeoff? It would have been averted. Thats all I am thinking. Yes they were at fault, but with the proper resources inside and outside the aircraft this thing could have been avoided. That is all...

I didn't say I was gods gift. I'm just saying having some experience in a single pilot environment is valuable.

I said we all make mistakes limit them to small ones.

What if it was at an uncontrolled field? Or the tower closed at night?

Saying a sarcastic remark to me is kind of rediculous. You must think you are gods gift if you can take a shot at me. I'm debating a point not here to bash you.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I used to think this too, mistakenly. In point of fact, MBAs are the scum of the earth; lawyers are simply a necessary evil against the greedy scourge of MBAs.

Best post I've seen in a while!

 

[flyover]

Its not about not making mistakes. It's about not making mistakes that will kill you. Every one make mistakes ie leaving the transponder off, mising a hand off, etc. Its the big stuff. Yes there is a chain. Yes there are a lot of things that could have prevented that accident. My point is pilot can't be robot and put on the blinders and go through the motions. This isn't accounting. If they wanted unmanned vehicles they could have that. Pilots are still in the cockpit to think. Because sometimes all the checklists in the world can't make you think. Think what could kill me every time you are in a critical phase of flight etc. Where do you put thinking in the chain?

The more thinking that has to be done the more dangerous the operation. Wrong runway takeoffs and landings have been happening ever since they built the second runway.

Wrong heading for selected runway should produce a takeoff warning just like flaps or trim. The technology exists to do that right now.

I don't know of anyone I trust less than a guy who tells me it wouldn't happen to him.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I don't know of anyone I trust less than a guy who tells me it wouldn't happen to him.

Exactly!

 

[SteveC]

Many of my best friends are lawyers. Good people, every one of them. The bottom line is that, by far, the largest percentage of the lawyers that I know are good people.

My data points are just as valid as those who think most lawyers are scum, yes?

 

[Stone Cold]

Many of my best friends are lawyers. Good people, every one of them. The bottom line is that, by far, the largest percentage of the lawyers that I know are good people.

My data points are just as valid as those who think most lawyers are scum, yes?

Nah, you're old so you don't count!!anic::laff:

I did say there are some good lawyers out there...and there are hundreds of ambulance chasers/scum of the land lawyers that will sue anybody and everybody...that's what I am addressing.

From the sound of it, this lawyer was actually helping his client, with a horrible defense so he didn't lose the chance of using it against some more scum lawyers. As bad as it sounds, I don't blame his lawyer if this is actually the case. However, I think it's an abomination to have to do this in the first place. No matter what happens, the lawyers always make money...even if the MBA puts his business out of business and has the golden parachute, there will be lawyers there collecting as they dismantle the company and the MBA is long gone...