Level Off Freq changes

NJA_Capt

Well-Known Member
Since the Wright brothers first put a CB radio in the Wright flyer :D , Pilots have joked that you guys wait until we level off before handing us off. We generally just laughed at the coincidence and moved on. But for the last few years it actually seems to have become procedure because it has become predictable and consistent. So I was just wondering if there was actually a directive passed down for this occurrence?

Another observation is that ARTCC doesn't judge climb rates relative to handoffs and level offs. Several times lately I have been given amended altitudes w/i 500' of the new altitude, not taking into account that we were climbing at 4000-5000 fpm. It takes a lot of space to make a 1G level off from 5000 fpm. Many times, the AP begins a level off 2000-3000' before the level off altitude. Not to mention the massive power reduction required (near idle). I just don't want you to think we are being pushy "looking for higher." We just have to plan way ahead to be able to manage inertia and keep it comfortable for the pax.

My thanks to the guys in IAH a few months ago.....We made it to FL410 before we left the lateral limits of the Class B (although it wasn't exactly a straight line out).
 
The only time that happens in my airspace is when center is refusing to take the handoff for some reason. Either they are busy getting tunnel vision somewhere else on their scopes, or turned around not facing the scope yaking away at their co-workers. When I see guys/gals getting a few thousand feet from the top of my airspace I'll call them and ask for higher as a nudge for them to take the handoff.
 
I put higher on request when I get my clearance on the ground. It doesn't always work, but it's worth a try. "Passing 2000"..."Radar contact, climb and maintain FL230." "Contact XYZ Center" happens 30 seconds later. Leveling off just to get a switch and then continue climbing is probably one of my least favorite things in flying.
 
It’s def not something we want either. Believe me, we want you out of our airspace even more than you do. I’m very lazy and hate working so want it over with as quickly as possible. If you level off in my airspace (in most circumstances, going to ELVAE or BREZY not included) it’s because the next guy hasn’t taken radar on you. That is the only reason.
 
Just taking a stab in the dark, but maybe you should consider reducing your climb rate a tad. You may be leveling off because you are reaching the ceiling of the airspace prior to the hand-off point.
 
indeed. Try climbing like a 717 instead of an F-15 and you’ll never have to worry about leveling off ever again.
So we should all follow the slowest guy on the interstate because his car can't keep up with the others? Riiiiiiiight. Actually, that IS a reduced climb rate, anything more and it's uncomfortable for the pax. Not all planes are created equal, but the slug shouldn't be setting the tone for the rest of the pack. Almost any jet without a name taped on its roof can be at FL410+ in less than :13-:20 Mins these days.
 
So we should all follow the slowest guy on the interstate because his car can't keep up with the others? Riiiiiiiight. Actually, that IS a reduced climb rate, anything more and it's uncomfortable for the pax. Not all planes are created equal, but the slug shouldn't be setting the tone for the rest of the pack. Almost any jet without a name taped on its roof can be at FL410+ in less than :13-:20 Mins these days.
The terminal environment is not an interstate, it is an interchange. The smaller ones are simple clovers but the big ones like New York and So/NoCAL are spaghetti balls, and yeah if you get stuck behind the slow guy, guess what? You are gonna have to slow down or take a detour.
 
So we should all follow the slowest guy on the interstate because his car can't keep up with the others? Riiiiiiiight. Actually, that IS a reduced climb rate, anything more and it's uncomfortable for the pax. Not all planes are created equal, but the slug shouldn't be setting the tone for the rest of the pack. Almost any jet without a name taped on its roof can be at FL410+ in less than :13-:20 Mins these days.

Jesus dude it was a joke because I make fun of the 717’s lack of climb rate. Now I’m gonna start letting people level off just because.
 
So we should all follow the slowest guy on the interstate because his car can't keep up with the others? Riiiiiiiight. Actually, that IS a reduced climb rate, anything more and it's uncomfortable for the pax. Not all planes are created equal, but the slug shouldn't be setting the tone for the rest of the pack. Almost any jet without a name taped on its roof can be at FL410+ in less than :13-:20 Mins these days.
My favorite interactions in the King Air was when airliners are trying to get above us as we were at 350. The controller said only 410 was currently open. Airliner was not happy they had to pass below a King Air.
 
I can generally do 4-6000ish a minute in climb down low but being based in SoCal I know to expect level offs in climb (and suuuper early descents), so I usually trade a couple thousand feet a minute for the ability to go fast through FL200 or so, that way I’m not a flying roadblock for airliners accelerating above 10 nor am I giving RAs out like candy on Halloween.

Of course there’s also this tidbit in the AIM...
Descend or climb at an optimum rate consistent with the operating characteristics of the aircraft to 1,000 feet above or below the assigned altitude, and then attempt to descend or climb at a rate of between 500 and 1,500 fpm until the assigned altitude is reached.
 
Since the Wright brothers first put a CB radio in the Wright flyer :D , Pilots have joked that you guys wait until we level off before handing us off. We generally just laughed at the coincidence and moved on. But for the last few years it actually seems to have become procedure because it has become predictable and consistent. So I was just wondering if there was actually a directive passed down for this occurrence?

Another observation is that ARTCC doesn't judge climb rates relative to handoffs and level offs. Several times lately I have been given amended altitudes w/i 500' of the new altitude, not taking into account that we were climbing at 4000-5000 fpm. It takes a lot of space to make a 1G level off from 5000 fpm. Many times, the AP begins a level off 2000-3000' before the level off altitude. Not to mention the massive power reduction required (near idle). I just don't want you to think we are being pushy "looking for higher." We just have to plan way ahead to be able to manage inertia and keep it comfortable for the pax.

My thanks to the guys in IAH a few months ago.....We made it to FL410 before we left the lateral limits of the Class B (although it wasn't exactly a straight line out).

I always like to teach that you lose a piece of your soul when aircraft level unnecessarily, that being said unfortunately it's an imperfect world with a lot of imperfect people. Sometimes you need to level but dont be afraid to ask for higher or ask if you can expect to level. Like a lot of things it depends on who is on the other side of the mic. Tbh if your doing 4-5k fpm that would be out of the norm unless your flying something military so dont be afraid to give them a heads up. What are you flying out of curiosity?
 
Classic trainee move at the ARTCC is to not make a decision on the handoff on a guy climbing like a rocket, say out of 240 for 430. We have traffic at 270 and trainee will call you with the aircraft out of 253 saying uh maintain 260 request control.

Other than that, we’re working split stratums and sometimes the guy in high sector is incredibly busy and can’t take the handoff and you’ll level at 230. Think you’d rather that, then get a climb clearance in conflict w traffic. My airspace in SoCal we have a lot of level off climbs because there’s about 10 different profiles that all want to be over FIM at FL240, and the SNA/LGB STAR descends right through the LAX climb via, so there’s a built in level off at 120 that can be as long as 20 miles, but that’s just the way it works. Too many airports in not enough airspace.

I don’t want you on my scope and I don’t want to talk to you. The faster you’re out of my airspace the better. Nobody is leveling you for fun, trust me.
 
..... it was a joke because I make fun of the 717’s lack of climb rate. Now I’m gonna start letting people level off just because.
Lighten up Francis ;) . Mine was tongue-n-Cheek too. :stir:

Tbh if your doing 4-5k fpm that would be out of the norm unless your flying something military so don't be afraid to give them a heads up. What are you flying out of curiosity?
I usually prompt to keep the climb going if able....understanding that we are climbing faster than most. In the CE750, you could just cruise climb at 1300 fpm all the way to FL470 accelerating all the way up. In the CL35 now and that old rule of thumb doesn't work. Leveling literally takes reducing to almost idle power 2000+ feet early. The other side of the coin is that once that initial inertia is lost, it takes a long time to get it back, if at all.

I don’t want you on my scope and I don’t want to talk to you. The faster you’re out of my airspace the better. Nobody is leveling you for fun, trust me.
That was kinda what I was thinking. I guess we could be looking at it the same way.

Random ARTCC trivia: The average frequency changes LA-NYC? 25 (Somehow it seems like more)
 
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Toronto seems to do this all the time with my buddy’s Lancair turbine. The vertical takeoff is rudely interrupted for a brief moment. We are in the middle of nowhere and there is typically zero traffic and if there is any they are at 320+.


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