Let's see the contract Pan Am!

Mavmb

Mavmb

Well-Known Member
Let\'s see the contract Pan Am!

I know the perfect way to celebrate Pan Am's addition to the website! Let's let them post a copy of their pilot career contract on the website for free! Pan Am should welcome this free publicity. They don't even pay for this like they do their ads at the top of the screen.

I'm especially interested in the fine print about the 2000 dollar penalty charge if you ever decide to leave Pan Am for any reason.
 
Re: Let\'s see the contract Pan Am!

Alright mav. Look, I was all set to start pan am awhile back, hell I even moved out there and everything. The whole $2000 contract thing is made very clear almost immediately after you get there, before you sign the contract. So maybe they didn't make it clear to you when you were there, but they sure do now (maybe it's a result of your posts here?). If I were you I would take it as a lesson learned about reading contracts before you sign them.

Now, here's why I decided not to sign and to continue part 61 back home.
1. The facilities are nice and the aircraft are new, but immediately I could see the same problems brewing that I encountered at Riddle. Your schedule appears to be made by your instructor with little or no input from you, the customer (note that I do not use the term "student"). This is the same as it was at Riddle, but I didn't have a problem with Riddle doing it since I was receiving credits from my ratings towards a degree. It was like having a class in college at a weird time that you didn't like, but you went anyway because it was part of a larger goal. I think pan am is creating an easily avoidable problem for itself through this unnecessary practice.

2. After I expressed my reluctance to sign the contract immediately, the salesman (they call them counselors or something) showed me a graph regarding airline pilot salaries. This was apparently in an attempt to scare me into the idea that if I don't hurry up and make some hasty decisions now, then I'll never make the $300,000 that was in bold at the top of the graph. This is the same tactic they use with the "Tarver Report" they promote on their website (I was also mailed the "Tarver Report" prior to my arrival there). I reacted by telling the salesman that there is no graph that can predict what pilot salaries will be like at any point in the future, and that no one person's career can follow a standard predictable track (especially in aviation).

3. The "route" program. The idea of a couple of freshly minted, private multi-engine rated pilots being sent out on cross-countries with no instructor at night scares the crap out of me. To add to my apprehension (or affirm it) a pan am seminole crashed on a "route" flight not too long before I got there. The multi-engine experience I've had since has only strengthened my belief that this is a dangerous situtation.

4. The "ACE" program is flat out worthless. I thought the salesman was going to have a stroke when I asked if the CRJ-200 trainer had received FTD certification. It hasn't, which (as mav has pointed out) makes it un-loggable. That's right, $8,000 worth of unloggable time. What was the answer I received when I pointed this out? "Technically, you can log whatever you want". Yeah, I can log my drive to the airport too but there's no column marked "Subaru" in my logbook.

5. $14-15 made per hour as a flight instructor?!?!?! I'll be making $40 back here in socal. When the salesman and I went over the average hours an instructor recieves per month at pan am, the yearly salary came out to be roughly the cost of the ACE program. Coincidence? There's no way I could pay rent and eat on that salary, much less make car and loan payments. CFIs around here may not be rich, but at least most of them do just fine without a source of additional income.

I need to thank Jetcareers and all the honest people here (especially Doug, MikeD, Don, and yes even you mav) for giving me the info I needed to make the right decision. Bottom line is, I love flying. I realized that if for some reason flight instructing was as far as I'd get in the aviation industry, then that would be just fine. Going the FBO route may not have the structure, glitz, and promises of a big academy, but the opportunites I've encountered (read: networking) by doing so are priceless and it's the best decision I've ever made.

Good Luck to you all
 
Re: Let\'s see the contract Pan Am!

Just a few thoughts to share on the above post...

1. Scheduling 150 students (or however many there are) around 28 airplanes everyday can be quite a challenge. The way the schedule works is part of the structure. If you can think of a better way to get that kind of scheduling done and not incur major delays in progress, please offer up a suggestion.

2. It is pretty simple... Time = Money The longer you spend in the "training" environment, the less you will ulitmately make. Now I am not saying that money is only motivation, but lets be realistic, it is an important one. I will agree that the $300K number, is a little exagerated, especially with what is happening w/ the state of the industry. However, the point is still the same whether or not the number is $300k, $200k, or just $150k... Each year you spend in training means one less year you are at the top of the pay scale. Oh, and yes, pay scales can and do change, but isn't it a safe bet that if you stay at one airline and work your way up the seniority list, that your payscale will increase right along with your advancement?

3. The route program... I never had a problem with it. I guess I felt I was trained well enough to be able to handle long IFR XC at night, but that is beside the point. As a result of the accident, route now happens during the day. Speaking of the accident, the final NTSB report is available. The cause of that accident was a combination of miscommunication w/ ATC, and loss of positional awareness by the two pilots.

4. The CRJ sim is fully legally loggable, and has been for awhile now. (You might want to make sure you have current facts before you pull a "Mav" and start talking out your arse.)

That's all for now... Have fun teaching in SoCal! (seriously)
 
Re: Let\'s see the contract Pan Am!

[ QUOTE ]

2. It is pretty simple... Time = Money The longer you spend in the "training" environment, the less you will ulitmately make. Now I am not saying that money is only motivation, but lets be realistic, it is an important one. I will agree that the $300K number, is a little exagerated, especially with what is happening w/ the state of the industry. However, the point is still the same whether or not the number is $300k, $200k, or just $150k... Each year you spend in training means one less year you are at the top of the pay scale. Oh, and yes, pay scales can and do change, but isn't it a safe bet that if you stay at one airline and work your way up the seniority list, that your payscale will increase right along with your advancement?


[/ QUOTE ]


I'd say the regional you choose has alot more to do with seniority numbers in regards to the majors then all this "fast track, gee wizz, academy style training". Think about it: you can get somebody who gets done in 90 days, 6 months whatever, who goes on to Comair or Horizon (good regionals) yet they are gonna sit right seat for years all the while missing out on the turbine PIC time. Or you can have somebody that goes the "substandard, you wont amount to anything"
tongue.gif
FBO route for 2 years (BTW it can be done way faster if your motivated) then go on to Mesa, etc.. and upgrade to Captain in just a few months. Now who has a better advantage here? Plus the FBOer isnt worrying about KeyBank knocking on his door while he's making crap his first year at the regionals.
 
Re: Let\'s see the contract Pan Am!

[ QUOTE ]


I'd say the regional you choose has alot more to do with seniority numbers in regards to the majors then all this "fast track, gee wizz, academy style training". Think about it: you can get somebody who gets done in 90 days, 6 months whatever, who goes on to Comair or Horizon (good regionals) yet they are gonna sit right seat for years all the while missing out on the turbine PIC time. Or you can have somebody that goes the "substandard, you wont amount to anything"
tongue.gif
FBO route for 2 years (BTW it can be done way faster if your motivated) then go on to Mesa, etc.. and upgrade to Captain in just a few months. Now who has a better advantage here? Plus the FBOer isnt worrying about KeyBank knocking on his door while he's making crap his first year at the regionals.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree... It makes a HUGE difference what airline you go to work for. However, I don't agree with your timing arguement. You can only start to interview once you have met the posted hiring minimums for "said" airline.By the time a person gets to that point, that person had better be familiar enough with the airline, and the industry for that matter, to know what the potenial future looks like.You can choose to go "fast track, gee-whiz", or you can go "substandard, you won't amount to anything" (your words, not mine).

To answer your question, IMHO, the advantage goes to the person that gives himself/herself the opportunity to make the decision first.
 
Re: Let\'s see the contract Pan Am!

[ QUOTE ]

4. The CRJ sim is fully legally loggable,

[/ QUOTE ]

As what?

It's not a sim so you can't log sim time.

I am pretty sure you got the same type of device that ATA had, maybe even the exact same device, as I heard it went to FPR.

It was approved as a level 5 Link Trainer just before it left, but of course that is no good if it has been moved and reassembled.

If Pan Am has the level 5 certification you can log it as Link Trainer.

I would recommend that you prospective airline interviewees out there do not log CRJ simulator time when you train in this thing. I've worked with both animals and they are different.

There are several vital emergency scenarios that cannot be worked out with that type of link trainer, such as inadvertent thrust reverser deployment, or flight control partial disconnect. Others will come to me as I drink my coffee
grin.gif
 
Re: Let\'s see the contract Pan Am!

[ QUOTE ]
4. The CRJ sim is fully legally loggable, and has been for awhile now. (You might want to make sure you have current facts before you pull a "Mav" and start talking out your arse.)


[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I didn't make something clear. These were the circumstances at that time, I hope things are different now and I'm glad to hear that some things have been changed (i.e., "route" during the day). BTW, how is the CRJ-200 loggable now? At what level is it certified?

[ QUOTE ]
Scheduling 150 students (or however many there are) around 28 airplanes everyday can be quite a challenge. The way the schedule works is part of the structure. If you can think of a better way to get that kind of scheduling done and not incur major delays in progress, please offer up a suggestion

[/ QUOTE ]

Flight Safety doesn't seem to have a problem with this, maybe y'all should check that out. Not being mean, just a thought.

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, and yes, pay scales can and do change, but isn't it a safe bet that if you stay at one airline and work your way up the seniority list, that your payscale will increase right along with your advancement?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but there's also guys like my current instructor who have been furloughed twice, have thousands of hours more than anyone at pan am, and have no seniority number anywhere. They need to makes ends meet somehow, and it sure as hell wouldn't be as an instructor at pan am. Believe it or not, if you charge what a flight instructor should charge (the place I fly out of is $50-$75 per hour), you can make a liveable wage. I know personal trainers who make $50-$100 per hour, shouldn't a CFI make that much?

I know this is a tangent, but what really bothered me about that whole DVT area was the saturation of struggling pilots. It was not hard to see that networking in an environment where you are one of a thousand can only diminish your chances.

Now, everyone reading this, keep in mind that all this is my own personal thoughts and experience. I'm relatively inexperienced in this industry, so take it for what it's worth. If you want solid career advice, listen to the working (or retired) pilots on this board, I sure do.
 
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