Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
Wow, I am sorry I am reading your PMs. Here I thought this was a thread on a forum that anyone could participate in.
Lesson for all those considering joining
- Thread starter joel_MQY
- Start date
Wow, I am sorry I am reading your PMs. Here I thought this was a thread on a forum that anyone could participate in.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Skywestseth,
I didn't want to have to do it. . .but I suppose I must. You can be a martyr for the cause of powerful men, you can believe the lies that they tell you as a servicemember, and as such you are also believing the lies that they tell the American public.
1) Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq.
2) I don't know about you, but when I'm told the mission is to find WMD, and our President, our Commander in Chief, disbands the group of Marines whose only job it was to find said WMD, no more than a year and a half AFTER our initial invasion of Iraq - I find it hard to trust the words from him (the CIC).
3) Don't tell me our mission is to find WMD, then disband the organization sent in to find them. Then, don't change the mission 4 times after the initial invasion. Find WMD, Remove Saddam, Install a Democracy (because we are great at that), Continue to support the "Democracy" of Iraq.
4) Most of all - don't tell me, as a service member, that the Mission if Accomplished when in fact, we had no ####ing clue what our mission was.
So, I call those four items lies. You can call them what you will. I have no trouble calling anyone who ignores those realities, to be a martry for the current CIC's decisions. Stick your head in the sand, and go follow the policies of our current CIC. The end outcome is not a pretty one, and it is one that I wanted no part in. Not after those countless lies, and certainly not after the (as of today - official count from the DoD) 3422 deaths due to this lost cause.
I served at the pleasure of the American people, and at a time when patriotism was needed more than ever in this country. But for any service member to accept the decisions as pure "fate," is ignoring the fact that powerful men are playing with our lives . . . and my life is not to be played with any longer.
While it's not a lie directly, this Administrations inability to acknowledge faults of our intelligence continues to degrade our countries ability to be respected by other countries around the world. Our Administrations own admission that the case for WMD's was exagerated (CIA report from last fall), and that they have played on the fears of the American people to further a failed foreign policy decision is just horse####.
I wasn't a service member to be lead around on a wild goose chase for WMD, I wasn't a service member lead around on a wild goose chase to find OBL.
I was a service member to protect and defend the constitution against all enemies foriegn and domestic; I protected it against our foreign enemies (or whoever our know it all CIC tells us the enemy is), and now it's time for me to protect it against our domestic enemies - those who want a stronger patriot act, those who want to attack our civil liberties, those who want to see this country fall into an ever persistent police state.
No more.
I didn't want to have to do it. . .but I suppose I must. You can be a martyr for the cause of powerful men, you can believe the lies that they tell you as a servicemember, and as such you are also believing the lies that they tell the American public.
1) Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq.
2) I don't know about you, but when I'm told the mission is to find WMD, and our President, our Commander in Chief, disbands the group of Marines whose only job it was to find said WMD, no more than a year and a half AFTER our initial invasion of Iraq - I find it hard to trust the words from him (the CIC).
3) Don't tell me our mission is to find WMD, then disband the organization sent in to find them. Then, don't change the mission 4 times after the initial invasion. Find WMD, Remove Saddam, Install a Democracy (because we are great at that), Continue to support the "Democracy" of Iraq.
4) Most of all - don't tell me, as a service member, that the Mission if Accomplished when in fact, we had no ####ing clue what our mission was.
So, I call those four items lies. You can call them what you will. I have no trouble calling anyone who ignores those realities, to be a martry for the current CIC's decisions. Stick your head in the sand, and go follow the policies of our current CIC. The end outcome is not a pretty one, and it is one that I wanted no part in. Not after those countless lies, and certainly not after the (as of today - official count from the DoD) 3422 deaths due to this lost cause.
I served at the pleasure of the American people, and at a time when patriotism was needed more than ever in this country. But for any service member to accept the decisions as pure "fate," is ignoring the fact that powerful men are playing with our lives . . . and my life is not to be played with any longer.
While it's not a lie directly, this Administrations inability to acknowledge faults of our intelligence continues to degrade our countries ability to be respected by other countries around the world. Our Administrations own admission that the case for WMD's was exagerated (CIA report from last fall), and that they have played on the fears of the American people to further a failed foreign policy decision is just horse####.
I wasn't a service member to be lead around on a wild goose chase for WMD, I wasn't a service member lead around on a wild goose chase to find OBL.
I was a service member to protect and defend the constitution against all enemies foriegn and domestic; I protected it against our foreign enemies (or whoever our know it all CIC tells us the enemy is), and now it's time for me to protect it against our domestic enemies - those who want a stronger patriot act, those who want to attack our civil liberties, those who want to see this country fall into an ever persistent police state.
No more.
Chewie von Nubbins
New Member
Dayum boy, are you the real person that is running the Michael Moore fanclub website?
You are exactly right about this 35% approval rating of a President that we have today. Hey, it happens. Only Lyndon B. Johnson is an equal comparison to this donkey that we have in office now. His leadership of this country reminds me of some of the biggest jackasses that I was personally led by myself, while I spent 9 good years in the Navy.
I do thank you for your service to our country, and I do respect you for having served. However, I have to disagree with your gross generalization about the current state of affairs that our armed forces are currently participating in. Remember, we got into this mess that we are currently in within the last 5 years. And, this can be attributed to head donkey and his extreme right thinking/acting cronies' mindset. Hopefully this lesson that our country keeps learning in 30 year increments, will be just that....will happen at a minimum every 30 years. (In reference to Vietnam). The military that exists today is not the military that I knew when I served. But, I do have hope that when we finally get competent leadership back in the Executive branch, that military that I knew will show up again. And, this in no way reflects on the current people that are serving now and who makeup the military.
I can tell you that the 9 years that I spent in the service were 9 of the best, and worst, years of my life. And, for someone coming straight out of high school that really doesn't have their act together, I think that joining the service is one of the most viable options available to each American citizen.
Although the military might not have been right for you (no longer for me...as I figured out myself after 9 years), let me ask you one question. Would you be where you are today without the lessons that you learned as a result of having served? More specifically (while asking the same question), would your motivation and drive be where it is today, if you would not have served?
SRA_kbad
Scooter Trash!!!
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Nope, not at all. And - if I may say - that there is the type of initial come back that I have come to enjoy from people at JC. Going the Michael Moore route. Okay. I can play along too, but I won't.
Great, I feel the exact same way. Yipee?
Bolded is my emphasis. I must say, that I'm pretty fed up with the thought that everyone that joins the military doesn't have their #### together. Let's dispell that myth right now. I, had a full scholarship to any state ran school here in GA. Unfortunately, no state ran public school offered the degree and education that I wanted - so I looked elsewhere. So no - not everyone that joins the military needs something to get their act together - some, many of us that I saw, actually have our #### together before joining the military. It's the one's that become dependant on the military to provided EVERYTHING for them that are the one's that I feel do not have their #### together.
Without the lessons? What lessons? Was there a syllabus? What I learned from the military, the Air Force specifically, I wouldn't call a lesson.
My motivation before I joined the military, remains the same, after I have left the military. To have a place in public service. Helping others.
I have a colorful way of describing my disgust for our current state of foreign affairs. You, on the other hand, are able to put it in much nicer terms. Take what you want. I have my way, you have yours. Neither is right, nor wrong. I'm as fed up with the system, that I really can not get any more fed up, hence my strong emotions.
Easy boys...
I've traded PMs with a few people in this thread - all who served or serve honorably. I guarantee in many shapes and forms most of us in this thread have very similar thoughts about the state of affairs, and military service in general. I know because many of you have told me as such.
Sometimes the posts in a thread on an open forum get a little wacky - egos get bruised and such, usually from people not fully reading and comprehending what others are trying to really say. (I'm guilty too!)
I've traded PMs with a few people in this thread - all who served or serve honorably. I guarantee in many shapes and forms most of us in this thread have very similar thoughts about the state of affairs, and military service in general. I know because many of you have told me as such.
Sometimes the posts in a thread on an open forum get a little wacky - egos get bruised and such, usually from people not fully reading and comprehending what others are trying to really say. (I'm guilty too!)
Welcome to my world!
Two ways to have a healthier forum lifestyle: Strategic use of
when you're playfully sarcastic and the occasional 
to denote that you're not really altogether being serious.
Chewie von Nubbins
New Member
Surreal,
Brother (and I do consider you a brother - having served), you seem to have taken what I said in response to you as a personal attack. Not at all brother, just not the case. The Michael Moore opener was more of a situational awareness opener, and not to be taken personal. You don't have to defend yourself to me. You are exactly right. Your experience was yours, my experience is mine. Dispelling myths, stating your case as if your opinion was the only one out there and must be followed and taken in stone...that is the issue that I have with your two previous posts. Your opinion is yours, and it only speaks for you. This isn't a point, counter point type of thing, brother.
Trust me, I'm sure that I had just as much bitterness and discontent that you feel at times in my years in as well. But, those feelings that I had at the time did in no way define ME, my leadership, the command, the service..etc. It was more of the situation, and I guess I learned a different take-away from it all. Although it almost killed me in a few situations, it certainly made me stronger. And, I can tell you that I am a much better and well rounded person having served. I wish the same would have been for you. Trust me, it is there...you just have to realize it.
You see, my time in the service is as big a part of me now as it was when I was in. I am proud of my service to our country, and it sure made me a bigger/better/stronger person. And, that was the point to my question at the bottom of my previous post. It is very clear that your penmanship has occurred while being intensely emotionally charged. I know it happens to the best of us, and I am sure that when those emotions calm down and you re-read what I have said, you will feel a bit differently about a few things. I could probably fill this whole message board with negativity about some situations that I was in, but what good would that do me? That is not the book that I have written in my mind that sums up my time in the service.
I sincerely wish you well brother. I am truly sorry that you weren't able to take away the positives about your service that I am sure that are there. If we ever cross paths, the first brew will be on me. Enjoy your journey in getting your ratings. I am sure that you are a nice guy, and that is the person that I always try to identify with in people. You will always be a brother to me.
Ian J (Chinook),
No ego here at all brother. Checked at the door...as always.
You still should have kept the old name...I hope that I can for give you for that one day.
Brother (and I do consider you a brother - having served), you seem to have taken what I said in response to you as a personal attack. Not at all brother, just not the case. The Michael Moore opener was more of a situational awareness opener, and not to be taken personal. You don't have to defend yourself to me. You are exactly right. Your experience was yours, my experience is mine. Dispelling myths, stating your case as if your opinion was the only one out there and must be followed and taken in stone...that is the issue that I have with your two previous posts. Your opinion is yours, and it only speaks for you. This isn't a point, counter point type of thing, brother.
Trust me, I'm sure that I had just as much bitterness and discontent that you feel at times in my years in as well. But, those feelings that I had at the time did in no way define ME, my leadership, the command, the service..etc. It was more of the situation, and I guess I learned a different take-away from it all. Although it almost killed me in a few situations, it certainly made me stronger. And, I can tell you that I am a much better and well rounded person having served. I wish the same would have been for you. Trust me, it is there...you just have to realize it.
You see, my time in the service is as big a part of me now as it was when I was in. I am proud of my service to our country, and it sure made me a bigger/better/stronger person. And, that was the point to my question at the bottom of my previous post. It is very clear that your penmanship has occurred while being intensely emotionally charged. I know it happens to the best of us, and I am sure that when those emotions calm down and you re-read what I have said, you will feel a bit differently about a few things. I could probably fill this whole message board with negativity about some situations that I was in, but what good would that do me? That is not the book that I have written in my mind that sums up my time in the service.
I sincerely wish you well brother. I am truly sorry that you weren't able to take away the positives about your service that I am sure that are there. If we ever cross paths, the first brew will be on me. Enjoy your journey in getting your ratings. I am sure that you are a nice guy, and that is the person that I always try to identify with in people. You will always be a brother to me.
Ian J (Chinook),
No ego here at all brother. Checked at the door...as always.
You still should have kept the old name...I hope that I can for give you for that one day.
Chewie von Nubbins
New Member
Welcome to my world!
Two ways to have a healthier forum lifestyle: Strategic use of
Guilty. The Michael Moore comment should have been tagged with one of those silly icons to denote light heartiness of it's original intent.
There you go again with the......
Doing what the perfect mod should always do.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
[yt]0ZvarRe-XVQ[/yt]
You and me. . .let's hug it out.
You and me. . .let's hug it out.
Chewie von Nubbins
New Member
Umm...before I agree to this, which one of us is Jeremy Piven? :laff:
Ian J (Chinook),
No ego here at all brother. Checked at the door...as always.
You still should have kept the old name...I hope that I can for give you for that one day.
Ha!
You know, one day I just started thinking one day when I'm flying (insert name of plane) for (insert name of company) 20 years down the road, I might get tired of people thinking I still fly Chinooks. And its not so much being tired of the questions, its the admission by me to those questions:
"Doood! You really fly Chinooks! That's awesome!"
Me: "Well, I USED to... now I fly..."
"Uh, that's great... see ya."
BUT! I really don't see the awesome Chinook avatar disappearing anytime soon.
(Gotta hold onto the roots somehow!)
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
I think that's a failure of your own leadership to communicate that, rather than the CINC.
I participated in the "Shock and Awe" invasion of Iraq -- 34 combat missions in the F-15E -- and there was never in my mind a question about what THE MISSION was at that time. Perhaps I can tickle your memory with the phrase "Regime Change".
Everything else....EVERYTHING else...was subordinate to that primary mission. Finding WMDs, holding elections, supressing an insurgency, were all sub to the primary mission of throwing Saddam out of power. Period.
I understood very clearly just what mission the President was talking about when he stood under the "Mission Accomplished" banner. None of the rest of my squadronmates had any question about it, either.
Now, none of this excuses any of the very poor choices that were made by the senior level US leadership in the process, of course....but that is an entirely different subject than you not understanding the mission being referenced in "mission accomplished" AND thinking that lack of understanding equals a "lie" from the CINC.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
Preach, preach. Good words that need to be repeated OFTEN as we approach an important election year.
I wholeheartedly agree.
alphaone
Well-Known Member
I agree, which is what alot of people forget. We removed a dictator with a large military in about 3 days. The "war" was won in 3 days people. Every other country and especially enemy of the United States should take note and not get confused about the difference between trying to help a helpless country have a future, or obliterating an entire military and dispoing a government into nonexistance in a matter of days.
Now post-war planning, the insurgency, why we are still there is a whole other story. Remember, these are weird political objectives, not military objectives.
The military goals of destroying Saddam's military and removing the regime were achieved in a matter of days. If terrorists took over the country tomorrow, we could remove them from power in days as well.
So it doesn't matter what happens from here on out, we won the war. Hopefully things get better in Iraq though, or we get our guys out.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
See Hacker, there in lies my problem. Albeit, one can say that problem is just another one of the poor decisions that this administration made. Whatever.
The problem is - This administration, did not bill this war on "Resume change." They billed it as protecting America from WMDs. Hence, the original mission was, to find WMDs. Then, to change the mission, AFTER we have removed a dictator of a sovereign country. . .wow now, that's not what the mission was. . .dubya tea eff mate?
-Hence my issue. What mission was accomplished? It wasn't the mission the American people were told about, it was a different mission - one that they didn't dare speak of at the UN, one that they certainly didn't tell Congress about under public record. It's one that a very close nit, very powerful group of officials wanted - and they got, by playing on the fears of the American public under the disguise of Weapons of Mass Destruction. It's very difficult for an administration to fudge intelligence to swing their way when it comes to "Resume change." But it's pretty darn easy - as seen - to change intelligence, or to ignore factual findings by other offices of the executive, and to fixate on whatever the Office of Special Plans decided was "proper" intelligence.
End of story.
PS - and I'm glad that I was able to provide some amount of air refueling forecast for you I'm sure. You returned to base, resources in good shape, my job is done. That's it, four years of that. Protect the resources - that was my mission.
That's what the Russians said after their little misjudgment in Afghanistan in the 80's. And well, look at us now, doing the exact same thing. Everyone involved can say they each won the "War," but there are no winners in war - only losers.
Also alphaone, read more about the containment strategy that worked flawlessly in the late 90's early 2000's. Saddam had no military, his equipment was old, his air defense was weak. We had been bombing his sites day in and day out since the mid 90's. Recall the no fly zones of north and south Iraq? He was contained, and it worked great.
Now - we have gone in, screwed up, and now WE (great. . .our problem now. . .our money. . . our lives . . . our resources breaking) to fix it. Ridiculous. Issue was, we were eventually kicked out of Saudi Arabia, and well. . .Qatar wouldn't let us have another base, UAE wouldn't let us have another base, Kuwait was already packed with Air Force installations. . .what about Iraq?
Yeah - there we go. . .now we can maintain our dominance in the region, by getting into Iraq. But how do we do it you ask? Well, we tell America that they have WMDs, which they don't - then we take our a dictator - everyone Cheers cause they are patriotic, and well, now we stick around.
On a slightly separate note,
No one ever said the American empire lasts forever.
American's are more concerned with two gay men getting married, than they are about the fact that we are an undeniable empire, with military installations in over 130 countries.
The Arithmetic of America's Military Bases Abroad: What Does It All Add Up to?
The problem is - This administration, did not bill this war on "Resume change." They billed it as protecting America from WMDs. Hence, the original mission was, to find WMDs. Then, to change the mission, AFTER we have removed a dictator of a sovereign country. . .wow now, that's not what the mission was. . .dubya tea eff mate?
-Hence my issue. What mission was accomplished? It wasn't the mission the American people were told about, it was a different mission - one that they didn't dare speak of at the UN, one that they certainly didn't tell Congress about under public record. It's one that a very close nit, very powerful group of officials wanted - and they got, by playing on the fears of the American public under the disguise of Weapons of Mass Destruction. It's very difficult for an administration to fudge intelligence to swing their way when it comes to "Resume change." But it's pretty darn easy - as seen - to change intelligence, or to ignore factual findings by other offices of the executive, and to fixate on whatever the Office of Special Plans decided was "proper" intelligence.
End of story.
PS - and I'm glad that I was able to provide some amount of air refueling forecast for you I'm sure. You returned to base, resources in good shape, my job is done. That's it, four years of that. Protect the resources - that was my mission.
Alphaone said:
That's what the Russians said after their little misjudgment in Afghanistan in the 80's. And well, look at us now, doing the exact same thing. Everyone involved can say they each won the "War," but there are no winners in war - only losers.
Also alphaone, read more about the containment strategy that worked flawlessly in the late 90's early 2000's. Saddam had no military, his equipment was old, his air defense was weak. We had been bombing his sites day in and day out since the mid 90's. Recall the no fly zones of north and south Iraq? He was contained, and it worked great.
Now - we have gone in, screwed up, and now WE (great. . .our problem now. . .our money. . . our lives . . . our resources breaking) to fix it. Ridiculous. Issue was, we were eventually kicked out of Saudi Arabia, and well. . .Qatar wouldn't let us have another base, UAE wouldn't let us have another base, Kuwait was already packed with Air Force installations. . .what about Iraq?
Yeah - there we go. . .now we can maintain our dominance in the region, by getting into Iraq. But how do we do it you ask? Well, we tell America that they have WMDs, which they don't - then we take our a dictator - everyone Cheers cause they are patriotic, and well, now we stick around.
On a slightly separate note,
No one ever said the American empire lasts forever.
American's are more concerned with two gay men getting married, than they are about the fact that we are an undeniable empire, with military installations in over 130 countries.
source: http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jun2003/basestructure2003.pdfThe Arithmetic of America's Military bases said:
The Arithmetic of America's Military Bases Abroad: What Does It All Add Up to?
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
Sorry, but I don't agree with that in any way. "Regime Change" was exactly the mission that was laid out for both the American people and the military. The rationale for wanting that regime change was the presence of WMDs and the perception of support for terrorism.
If you want to argue that the rationale was based on false premises, then I don't have a counter-argument for that...BUT, that is a completely different agument -- it doesn't change the primary mission.
Finding WMD was never part of my mission. Installing a new democratic government wasn't part of the mission. The mission was removing Saddam from power. That is what the CFACC's intent statement said when we were briefed on the OIF OPLAN in March '03, and that is exactly what the President said to the American public when he addressed the nation. IIRC, his quote to Saddam in that speech was "You have 48 hours to leave Iraq".
If I weren't in Afghanistan right now, I'd gladly post some screencaps I made of cnn.com on the 17th, 18th, 19th, and 20th of March 2003 right before the war started. They are very clear with respect to what the CINC said about the mission.
To say otherwise is revisionist history, I'm afraid.
I really don't disagree with the general point of view you have...I just think the way you are arguing it is based on some false logic.
joel_MQY
Well-Known Member
...and I thought the pissing contest was over at the top of this page. The original point is for all of those preparing to join, be VERY careful and particular in your conversations with the recruiter. Serving time in the military is fine. Serving time in the pen with 'Bubba... not so good.
The original point is for all of those preparing to join, be VERY careful and particular in your conversations with the recruiter. Serving time in the military is fine. Serving time in the pen with 'Bubba... not so good.