Length of legs with GPS hold in lieu of PT

jrh

jrh

Well-Known Member
Check out this approach:

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1112/05215R2.PDF

Here is my question: If flying from the northwest and beginning the approach at ANUKE, a teardrop entry into the holding pattern would be used as a course reversal. When performing that teardrop, does the aircraft need to fly a 5 mile "outbound" leg, followed by a 5 mile "inbound" leg to ANUKE?

Or may the pilot elect to only go as far outbound as necessary to have enough room to turn around on the protected side, then come back inbound? So maybe 2.5 outbound, then 2.5 inbound, thus saving 5 miles total.

I can't find anything in the AIM that specifies one way or another. All it says is to fly for one minute outbound during teardrop entries.

A Garmin 430 will sequence the entry based on five mile legs, regardless of speed.

What would you do?
 
juxtapilot said:
Hold however you like just no more than 5 mile legs.
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Well, I don't think that's quite right. If established in the hold, it should be flown with 5 mile legs--no more, no less. The hold is defined by 5 mile legs in the same way it's defined by a particular fix to hold over, with a particular direction for the turns. It's based on DME/GPS distance, not time.

But that's beside the point. I'm more concerned about the correct way to do a course reversal when I'm shooting the approach and *not* holding.
 
I would say as long as you are in protected airspace, it could look like spaghetti and still be OK.
 
jrh said:
Well, I don't think that's quite right. If established in the hold, it should be flown with 5 mile legs--no more, no less. The hold is defined by 5 mile legs in the same way it's defined by a particular fix to hold over, with a particular direction for the turns. It's based on DME/GPS distance, not time.

But that's beside the point. I'm more concerned about the correct way to do a course reversal when I'm shooting the approach and *not* holding.
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As far as I know you are to remain within 5 miles. You don't need to do the entire 5 mile leg. I don't take my own word for it though. I'll have to find a reference. :)

As for the course reversal, I'd fly it the same as any other hold. 1 minute out, teardrop in etc.
 
juxtapilot said:
As far as I know you are to remain within 5 miles. You don't need to do the entire 5 mile leg. I don't take my own word for it though. I'll have to find a reference. :)
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Review AIM 5-3-7. In part, it says:

"DME/GPS holding is subject to the same entry and holding procedures except that distances (nautical miles) are used in lieu of time values. The outbound course of the DME/GPS holding pattern is called the outbound leg of the pattern. The controller or the instrument approach procedure chart will specify the length of the outbound leg. The end of the outbound leg is determined by the DME or ATD readout."

My emphasis added.

To me, this seems really clear cut. If the chart shows a specific distance, that distance is to be flown once established in the hold. Just like how timed holds are expected to be 1 minute unless specified otherwise, and ATC/FAA intends for pilots to fly one minute legs, it's no different with distances. It's just that we're using distance rather than time to define the hold.

It's the entry procedure I'm fuzzy on. The AIM doesn't talk about anything other than time when figuring entries, yet the Garmin 430 seems to base its turns off distance.

juxtapilot said:
As for the course reversal, I'd fly it the same as any other hold. 1 minute out, teardrop in etc.
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Fair enough. That's why I asked.
 
jrh said:
Review AIM 5-3-7. In part, it says:

"DME/GPS holding is subject to the same entry and holding procedures except that distances (nautical miles) are used in lieu of time values. The outbound course of the DME/GPS holding pattern is called the outbound leg of the pattern. The controller or the instrument approach procedure chart will specify the length of the outbound leg. The end of the outbound leg is determined by the DME or ATD readout."

My emphasis added.

To me, this seems really clear cut. If the chart shows a specific distance, that distance is to be flown once established in the hold. Just like how timed holds are expected to be 1 minute unless specified otherwise, and ATC/FAA intends for pilots to fly one minute legs, it's no different with distances. It's just that we're using distance rather than time to define the hold.

It's the entry procedure I'm fuzzy on. The AIM doesn't talk about anything other than time when figuring entries, yet the Garmin 430 seems to base its turns off distance.



Fair enough. That's why I asked.
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Yup, my bad, you're exactly right.

AIM is specific about Entry Procedures though. It doesn't specify what type of hold, just that these are the procedures to enter any type of hold.

3. Entry Procedures. (See FIG 5-3-4.)
(a) Parallel Procedure. When approaching the holding fix from anywhere in sector (a), the parallel entry procedure would be to turn to a heading to parallel the holding course outbound on the nonholding side for one minute, turn in the direction of the holding pattern through more than 180 degrees, and return to the holding fix or intercept the holding course inbound.
(b) Teardrop Procedure. When approaching the holding fix from anywhere in sector (b), the teardrop entry procedure would be to fly to the fix, turn outbound to a heading for a 30 degree teardrop entry within the pattern (on the holding side) for a period of one minute, then turn in the direction of the holding pattern to intercept the inbound holding course.
(c) Direct Entry Procedure. When approaching the holding fix from anywhere in sector (c), the direct entry procedure would be to fly directly to the fix and turn to follow the holding pattern.
(d) While other entry procedures may enable the aircraft to enter the holding pattern and remain within protected airspace, the parallel, teardrop and direct entries are the procedures for entry and holding recommended by the FAA.
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Actually, now that I study it more, I think I might have answered my own question. It comes down to this statement:

"DME/GPS holding is subject to the same entry and holding procedures except that distances (nautical miles) are used in lieu of time values."

I take this to mean distances are used rather than time for both entering and remaining established in the hold. Whatever we'd use time for when entering a hold, we should instead use distance for.

Thoughts?
 
jrh said:
Actually, now that I study it more, I think I might have answered my own question. It comes down to this statement:

"DME/GPS holding is subject to the same entry and holding procedures except that distances (nautical miles) are used in lieu of time values."

I take this to mean distances are used rather than time for both entering and remaining established in the hold. Whatever we'd use time for when entering a hold, we should instead use distance for.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Ehh.. I read that as once you are established in the hold you are to use the GPS/DME distances. That is in the holding section. There is a separate section on entries, and that says nothing about using distances.
 
The FAA Chief Counsel answered this question earlier this year: Unless ATC in the clearance specifies the leg length, all you are required to do is stay within the charted leg length.

==============================
In.response to your fifth question, it is permissible, without specific ATC clearance, to shorten published outbound DME legs in a holding pattern as long as the issued holding pattern leg length is not exceeded. If ATC verbalizes leg lengths for either a charted or uncharted holding pattern, the pilot does have to obtain ATC clearance to shorten outbound legs to less than that which has been cleared. "When an ATC clearance has been obtained, no pilot in command may deviate from that clearance unless an amended clearance is obtained, an emergency exists, or the deviation is in response to a traffic alert and coIlision avoidance system resolution advisory." See 14 C.F.R. 91. 123(a).
==============================

It's on the last page - http://tinyurl.com/445hxxl

I had always wondered about this one and expected the opposite, as you did. I hope ATC is on the same page, although I had gotten in the habit of telling ATC that I would fly a shorter leg.
 
To keep the thread running slightly off the original question...
We got holding earlier this week going to Morristown (Teterboro was over-loaded due to AM fog), and we were going to ask for longer legs (10 miles, as opposed to 1 minute). The more I thought about it the more I wondered why we wanted to do that? We were empty and there was only two airplanes below us in the holding pattern, so why not fly the shorter legs to keep us closer to the fix. That way there is less delay leaving the hold when we are cleared to continue. Besides, the FMS is doing all the hard work so it's not like we're giving ourselves a break by flying longer legs.

It's almost like it's a habit to ask for longer legs without really thinking it through. For sure it's worth while when we have people in the back to reduce the amount of turning they have to experience, and if the hold is going to last a while long legs are nice, but I guess it's worth thinking the whole situation through before just automatically asking.
 
jrh said:
Review AIM 5-3-7. In part, it says:

"DME/GPS holding is subject to the same entry and holding procedures except that distances (nautical miles) are used in lieu of time values. The outbound course of the DME/GPS holding pattern is called the outbound leg of the pattern. The controller or the instrument approach procedure chart will specify the length of the outbound leg. The end of the outbound leg is determined by the DME or ATD readout."

My emphasis added.

To me, this seems really clear cut. If the chart shows a specific distance, that distance is to be flown once established in the hold. Just like how timed holds are expected to be 1 minute unless specified otherwise, and ATC/FAA intends for pilots to fly one minute legs, it's no different with distances. It's just that we're using distance rather than time to define the hold.

It's the entry procedure I'm fuzzy on. The AIM doesn't talk about anything other than time when figuring entries, yet the Garmin 430 seems to base its turns off distance.



Fair enough. That's why I asked.
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My experience with the Garmins is that they just about always shorten everything up. Doesn't matter if it's an initial outbound in a hold, or a procedure turn on an approach, going by time (even adjusted time for wind correction), the Garmins always want you to turn around way too soon in my experience.

If it's a GPS based hold, the legs are distance based, but if I'm doing a conventional, timed portion of an approach with a Garmin, I still use my own discretion on when to turn rather than relying on their magic.
 
SteveC said:
It's almost like it's a habit to ask for longer legs without really thinking it through. For sure it's worth while when we have people in the back to reduce the amount of turning they have to experience, and if the hold is going to last a while long legs are nice, but I guess it's worth thinking the whole situation through before just automatically asking.
Click to expand...

You also burn less fuel and are less task-saturated when trying to do something else (ATIS, company comms, etc etc). IMHO, they already have an idea of where you are in line...you'll get in when you're Next. MHO, etc etc.
 
jrh said:
Actually, now that I study it more, I think I might have answered my own question. It comes down to this statement:

"DME/GPS holding is subject to the same entry and holding procedures except that distances (nautical miles) are used in lieu of time values."

I take this to mean distances are used rather than time for both entering and remaining established in the hold. Whatever we'd use time for when entering a hold, we should instead use distance for.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

That is the way I have always interpreted it.
 
Patrick said:
My experience with the Garmins is that they just about always shorten everything up. Doesn't matter if it's an initial outbound in a hold, or a procedure turn on an approach, going by time (even adjusted time for wind correction), the Garmins always want you to turn around way too soon in my experience.

If it's a GPS based hold, the legs are distance based, but if I'm doing a conventional, timed portion of an approach with a Garmin, I still use my own discretion on when to turn rather than relying on their magic.
Click to expand...

The GPS "anticipates" the turn to ensure you remain in protected airspace
 
SteveC said:
To keep the thread running slightly off the original question...
We got holding earlier this week going to Morristown (Teterboro was over-loaded due to AM fog), and we were going to ask for longer legs (10 miles, as opposed to 1 minute). The more I thought about it the more I wondered why we wanted to do that? We were empty and there was only two airplanes below us in the holding pattern, so why not fly the shorter legs to keep us closer to the fix. That way there is less delay leaving the hold when we are cleared to continue. Besides, the FMS is doing all the hard work so it's not like we're giving ourselves a break by flying longer legs.

It's almost like it's a habit to ask for longer legs without really thinking it through. For sure it's worth while when we have people in the back to reduce the amount of turning they have to experience, and if the hold is going to last a while long legs are nice, but I guess it's worth thinking the whole situation through before just automatically asking.
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Good point SteveC;
I did this very thing a couple of weeks ago waiting out a storm over Miami. Found myself on the far end of the pattern when I was cleared to continue. It kind of jammed things up for other aircraft as I was significantly slower than the "big iron" going into MIA. No one hurt, lesson learned.
Wish this discussion were held earlier!
 
Boris Badenov said:
You also burn less fuel and are less task-saturated when trying to do something else (ATIS, company comms, etc etc). IMHO, they already have an idea of where you are in line...you'll get in when you're Next. MHO, etc etc.
Click to expand...

How do you figure lower fuel burn?
 
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