Legal?...Or not?

SIUav8er

SIUav8er

Narcosis
Heres my situation:

There is a student pilot at my flight school (not my student) that likes to rent an airplane (and pay for an instructor) to go with him on business trips. Of course the flight school just says its "cross country training", but I am not really sure. The guy soloed over a year ago and just rents airplanes and instructors to fly wherever he wants to go. Where is the line drawn for opperating an on demad charter opperation? I am asking since I am a new CFI and am up next to take this guy on a "dual cross country". I would just go along with it, but this one is at night and is going to be a VERY long trip (over 400 miles and not the type of flying I like to do VFR)...not exactly the type of trip that would be included in a private pilot sylibus if you know what I mean.

Of course I dont plan on getting in an accident, but what if the FAA hears about this? How much responsibility do I hold in this situation if my flight school is not following the rules?
 
I think you're right to be concerned.

There is nothing wrong with pilots (student or otherwise) doing dual cross countries. On the other hand, if the bottom line is that these are primarily business trips, it starts to look an awful like on-demand charter, doesn't it.

Where the line between the two falls can be pretty grey at times, with a lot of factors coming into play. (So, for example, how much training does this pilot receive =other= than these cross countries? It is =always a business trip? Is it one instructor or everyone gets a trun at the passenger flight expereience?)

Two bottom lines for me are:

1. "How much responsibility do I hold in this situation if my flight school is not following the rules?" The answer is simple if we just turn the question around. If you do these flights and the pin dancer falls the wrong way, How much responsibility do I hold in this situation if I am not following the rules?" You can't push your responsibility off on your FBO.

2. If you are looking at the situation in a grey boundary line between two regulatory areas and are thinking "Hmm. This just doesn't sound right to me," you've answered your own question. So, does it =feel= like instructioin to you, or somehting else?
 
Just get him to do a Cross country flight plan, etc (all the usual stuff).
That way you will get a feel for if he is seriously training or not.
And if he only wants a ride to business he will not ask for you again.
 
He's likely doing this because he can expense the cost of the flight/flight instruction as business travel. This is something I have thought of doing in the past, especially when I had to go from DFW to AUS, HOU, or anywhere else that I might have taken SWA (which, in retrospect, is potentially cheaper, but not nearly as much fun.)

If there's a regulatory problem, say something to him. Chances are he'll be cool with it and complete his training in a manner you're comfortable with, or he'll go somewhere else, in which case he's someone else's problem.
 
i've been in this position also and to me it's pretty clear. "sorry book it with another instructor."

i don't put myself in that gray area. it's clearly a business trip and you know it. when the faa sees the student logbook of repeated trips to the same place 400 miles away with little progress in training they know whats up.

don't jepordize yourself.
 
I can appreciate your situation. There is something fishy about the whole thing. You could, as another said, have him make a flight plan, W&B...
Or rent the airplane, have him buy the fuel and then sell him a VERY expensive pencil. Say one that cost almost as much as one could rent a plane for with an instructor...
Is that fishy too?:yeahthat:
 
A 400 NM night flight for primary training?? Um, no way is that going to fall under anything remotely close to what the FAA deems as normal training. As far as planning an incident/accident, when was the last time you planned one of those?

I have done a couple of these types of trips but the student had his private and multi and legitimately wanted training on a longer cross country, especially in IFR. So, we sat down, did an hour of dual on the ground before even looking at the airplane and then went on the trip.

Usually when people ask these types of questions they already know the answer. My advice to you would be to decline this flight, tell the guy to finish up his cert and then you will go with him.
 
SIUav8er said:
Of course I dont plan on getting in an accident, but what if the FAA hears about this? How much responsibility do I hold in this situation if my flight school is not following the rules?
Click to expand...

The FAA has geneally held that if there is any aspect of transportation going on then it needs the appropriate operating certificates. So it can't even be "mostly" for training purposes.

Here's how you figure out if it's legal. If the student turns up for their dual training cross-country to destination A and you say "you know what, I think we'll go to destination B today" and the student doesn't want to go, then transportation was going on and it ain't legal.

This isn't that grey an area - if there is ANY transportation purpose going on then all the paperwork needs to be correct. This is not to say it doesn't happen A LOT - but that don't make it legal.

As far as responsibility - you won't enjoythe conversation with the FSDO or the suspension of our certificates for a period of time. You're supposed to know when you're legal to conduct a flight. I'm not saying the FBO won't have a conversation with the FSDO as well, but guess what, there's nothing the FSDO can to do them because they don't have any certificates for them to suspend.
 
i've actually been in this situation. i made the guy fill out complete navlogs for both ways, file a flight plan and time checkpoints. he had been receiving "normal" flight instruction for a good 15 hours before this flight. considering that the guy started his training with the goal of shaving time off his business travel by owning and flying his own plane, i considered this training XC just that - training. after the one long flight of marking time and getting groundspeed for every single checkpoint, his interest in making these types of trips declined and he resumed a more traditional student pilot syllabus. he knocked out all of his X C training in one day. nothing wrong here.

the OP's scenario sounded more like part 134.5 than the one i have described.
 
CFIse said:
Here's how you figure out if it's legal. If the student turns up for their dual training cross-country to destination A and you say "you know what, I think we'll go to destination B today" and the student doesn't want to go, then transportation was going on and it ain't legal.

As far as responsibility - you won't enjoythe conversation with the FSDO or the suspension of our certificates for a period of time. You're supposed to know when you're legal to conduct a flight. I'm not saying the FBO won't have a conversation with the FSDO as well, but guess what, there's nothing the FSDO can to do them because they don't have any certificates for them to suspend.
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Good points. Im done with these types of flights (right, theres more than one "student" doing this type of thing), it aint worth it...although my employer isnt going to be too happy. I may be on here in a few weeks lookin for a new job ;)
 
If the student rents the airplane and hires you to take him from A to B, that ain't charter, it's 'corporate' flying. He's hiring you to take him in his (rented) airplane.

If you (the instructor) have to rent the airplane, and the student is hiring you and the airplane together to take him from A to B, the it's a 135 charter.

So...if the student has progressed into training far enough to be able to rent the airplane (solo), then he has control of the airplane and could not possibly think he is buying an airline ticket.
 
I'd be very careful with that nosehair, the FAA doesn't share your view. We had the FAA call every few weeks trying to do exactly that, trying to bait the instructors into a trap.
 
averyrm said:
I'd be very careful with that nosehair, the FAA doesn't share your view. We had the FAA call every few weeks trying to do exactly that, trying to bait the instructors into a trap.
Click to expand...
The "we're renting to the student" bit is also a favorite for FBOs trying to get around the need for 100 inspections (the CFI is not providing the airplane). I hear tell the FAA's not too keen on that scam either.
 
averyrm said:
We had the FAA call every few weeks trying to do exactly that, trying to bait the instructors into a trap.
Click to expand...
Really? Well, how would that work? I'm not talking about a person posing as a "student" who "rents" an airplane and hires an instructor with the pretention of taking training when, in fact, it is transportation. If the school, or instructor did that, they would be guilty and the FAA would have hard evidence.

I'm responding to the actual case in this thread in which the 'student' is, in fact, an actual student, which you can verify, and has access to his own plane - actually, even if he isn't a student, but has access to, and control of, the plane he is hiring you to fly for him, how can that be made into a charter?

Yeah, I know. Even when you're right, you may have to spend lawyer money to prove it to the FAA. On that point, you have to be careful.
 
Keith in MY humble inexperienced opinion and along with the general feelings of most everyone here, that's a flight you should refuse to do. It's blatently obvious this "student" doesn't want a training flight. I'd tell him sorry and then direct him to the Southwest website to purchase a ticket. If you're employer has a problem with that well then too bad. Doing something dishonest at THIS job isn't worth screwing with your whole career.
 
SIUav8er said:
There is a student pilot at my flight school (not my student) that likes to rent an airplane (and pay for an instructor) to go with him on business trips. Of course the flight school just says its "cross country training", but I am not really sure. The guy soloed over a year ago and just rents airplanes and instructors to fly wherever he wants to go. Where is the line drawn for opperating an on demad charter opperation?
Click to expand...
OK, I went back and re-read the initial set-up. I was thinking it was a 'real' student, but it looks like a habitual transportation customer. In that case, I would not advise continuing this practice.
If he does have operational control of the airplane, it would not be technically illegal, but if the FAA wants to stop the practice, they can find a way, so I wouldn't want to wake the sleeping dog.
 
nosehair said:
OK, I went back and re-read the initial set-up. I was thinking it was a 'real' student, but it looks like a habitual transportation customer. In that case, I would not advise continuing this practice.
If he does have operational control of the airplane, it would not be technically illegal, but if the FAA wants to stop the practice, they can find a way, so I wouldn't want to wake the sleeping dog.
Click to expand...

If the "student" obtained the airplane from a place that the instructor had no relationship with and the "instructor" was then retained on the basis of both their commercial certificate and instructor's certificate then I think you're right, that's legal.

Whether it's actually possible (unless the student buys a plane) in the current insurance market is a whole different question.
 
Also, with the student renting the plane, if it's from the same place as the instructor's employed the FAA usually views that as holding out. (Sorry, too lazy to look up the proof, but I've read a few letters to that regard). Also, most places won't let outside instructor teach out of the planes they rent.

If the student owns the plane, then it's legal, otherwise watch yourself.
 
I'm glad I'm not put in these situations. Stay away from "cross country lessons" where the "student" wants nothing to do with the normal duties of a student like the cross country planning and preflight inspection. As the instructor, you shouldn't have to sit around an FBO all day at their beck and call either.

Mike
 
MarkE said:
Keith in MY humble inexperienced opinion and along with the general feelings of most everyone here, that's a flight you should refuse to do. It's blatently obvious this "student" doesn't want a training flight. I'd tell him sorry and then direct him to the Southwest website to purchase a ticket. If you're employer has a problem with that well then too bad. Doing something dishonest at THIS job isn't worth screwing with your whole career.
Click to expand...

Thanks Mark. So howd the big XC go!?
 
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