Learjet 60 crash in West Palm Beach

pwttogfk said:
Haven’t listened to the audio but allegedly a wx deviation was denied. I’m sure the armchair NTSB has it solved already but all I’ll say is I flew through a top once that I’d partially overscanned after being denied deviations around the cell and descended early into it and…I’m a lot less patient with controllers after that.
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Here is an unofficial transcript of the ATC radio transmissions (still super sad but not nearly as heart wrenching as the actual audio):


View: https://pastebin.com/raw/aNEDeQvL



I see the controller saying "no further right than present heading" but no request for deviations from the pilots. And the "no further right" instruction came after the pilots reported "we're direct Freeport" which assumedly coincides with that right turn shortly before things went south. I'm not quite sure why the controller said "no further right" since it appeared that the controller had acknowledged that they were direct Freeport already. But it seems to me that the aircraft had already turned into some of the worst of the weather by the time the radio exchange began.
 
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I guess free publicity
 
CoffeeIcePapers said:
Dude chill. Wait for the Captain Steeeeve video and all of your questions will be answered.
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To an extent it’s legit - the smallish Collins units are pretty bad- none of the older ones have 3d scanning.

Unless actively adjusting tilt correctly it was pretty easy to overscan rapidly building storms at close range. We’re actually
Prohibited from using auto in Falcon because it’s a) misunderstood, b) horrible. Nothing like scanning 1.2deg up at FL450. Gotta find the aliens and all.
 
obx said:
Don’t read any comments on any non-professional aviator sites (flightradar24, et.al), all kinds of conspiracy theories about Mara Lago, DEI because it’s a female on the radio,etc. It’s disgusting.
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Unfortunately some people never miss an opportunity to be sh*tty human beings.

As for inop radars that’s a hard no personally. Hell even with the radar some returns aren’t great especially in our 75’s.
 
I'm really struggling to understand why she was transmitting all this. Is she unable to do anything to try to fix what's going on? I'm assuming she was the PM but communication is the first thing to go when things start going south.
 
tlove482 said:
I'm really struggling to understand why she was transmitting all this. Is she unable to do anything to try to fix what's going on? I'm assuming she was the PM but communication is the first thing to go when things start going south.
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I don’t wanna listen. Was she directing coms at ATC or just white-knuckling PTT?
 
Cory Trevor said:
Really no reason to listen to it at all. You can probably guess pretty close to what was said and it doesn’t give any insight as to why it happened
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Along with that, unfortunately, the high speed / high angle impact such as this one likely will render little, if any, usable physical evidence either.

Have seen too many of these in my time too, sadly. Little left but a smoking hole in the ground.

tlove482 said:
I'm really struggling to understand why she was transmitting all this. Is she unable to do anything to try to fix what's going on? I'm assuming she was the PM but communication is the first thing to go when things start going south.
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Could’ve been the transmit being held down while attempting or assisting with recovery? Perhaps internal comm not necessarily meant for ATC. Hard to say.
 
Please trust me when I say this is not meant to kick the dead. But most 135 crews are trained in a way that satisfies their role in the cockpit, and that is about it. There isn't much time spent making sure crews harmonize, or know what is going on, to the level of most 121 training. There is a lot more freedom and levity to add your artistic touch in the cockit when flying 91 and 135. To me, I take her keying the mic as somebody who is scared for their life in the airplane because neither of them know what the hell is going on, and she is panicking. I didn't get the feeling from the audio, that they were working the problem together to try and save the aircraft. Now, that could be because the tail separated and they were instantly along for the ride, we will never know. Either way, she took herself out of the situation and decided she was going to die, very early on in the accident sequence.
 
Inverted said:
Please trust me when I say this is not meant to kick the dead. But most 135 crews are trained in a way that satisfies their role in the cockpit, and that is about it. There isn't much time spent making sure crews harmonize, or know what is going on, to the level of most 121 training. There is a lot more freedom and levity to add your artistic touch in the cockit when flying 91 and 135. To me, I take her keying the mic as somebody who is scared for their life in the airplane because neither of them know what the hell is going on, and she is panicking. I didn't get the feeling from the audio, that they were working the problem together to try and save the aircraft. Now, that could be because the tail separated and they were instantly along for the ride, we will never know. Either way, she took herself out of the situation and decided she was going to die, very early on in the accident sequence.
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Very difficult to say. With as fast as everything happened, combined with the departure from controlled flight, this unfortunately wouldn’t be a situation where any deep problem analysis could be had; they were likely just trying to gain recovery of the jet first…..who knows at what point that ability no longer became an option, which the crew likely would not have known.

Being 91/135, the crew on this aircraft could’ve easily met for the first time, or could’ve been a long time paired crew. We won’t know that until it’s released, but that would be easily known information, as would the experience of each crewmember. Whether any of that would’ve made a difference is unknown at this point, and may never be known. Either way, as fast as things went from normal, to departing controlled flight in a nearly instantaneous manner, as in this particular accident, would be an extreme CRM challenge for any crew no matter how experienced, as it came to any realization as to what was happening or why. Tragic and sad.
 
Inverted said:
Please trust me when I say this is not meant to kick the dead. But most 135 crews are trained in a way that satisfies their role in the cockpit, and that is about it. There isn't much time spent making sure crews harmonize, or know what is going on, to the level of most 121 training. There is a lot more freedom and levity to add your artistic touch in the cockit when flying 91 and 135. To me, I take her keying the mic as somebody who is scared for their life in the airplane because neither of them know what the hell is going on, and she is panicking. I didn't get the feeling from the audio, that they were working the problem together to try and save the aircraft. Now, that could be because the tail separated and they were instantly along for the ride, we will never know. Either way, she took herself out of the situation and decided she was going to die, very early on in the accident sequence.
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I think we have to remember how startling this would be to experience, and we'd be fighting for our lives. In the time (1.5min) it took to write this paragraph they went from FL360 to the ground. Her initial radio calls were remarkably clear considering the circumstances.
 
MikeD said:
As fast as things went from normal, to departing controlled flight in a nearly instantaneous manner, as in this particular accident, would be an extreme CRM challenge for any crew no matter how experienced, as it came to any realization as to what was happening or why. Tragic and sad.
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FL350 said:
I think we have to remember how startling this would be to experience, and we'd be fighting for our lives. In the time (1.5min) it took to write this paragraph they went from FL360 to the ground. Her initial radio calls were remarkably clear considering the circumstances.
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Yeah, that’s why it’s generally not recommended to fly the jet into a thunderstorm anvil in the upper 30s. Hopefully the NTSB can uncover some contributing factors as to why they elected to do so.
 
100%

Again I am not begrudging the crew at all. I think most certainly this will be found to be pilot error as they flew through a thunderstorm but we can point those fingers when the NTSB concludes. I'm merely saying that in my experience with 135, the training and CRM wasn't like it is in the 121 world. I am much more comfortable and confident
flying with somebody I've never met in the 121 world than I was 135. There's always a bit of a wall and when something happens I think the tendency for a pilot to take themselves out of the cockpit, is higher in those types of operations. We have seen it time and time again. It sounds like she resigned very quickly to her fate.
 
121… I’ve noticed a disturbing trend with the post Covid hires (versus pre COVID era). The tendency to literally slingshot themselves next to a major weather cell. All 3 airlines I’ve worked at the FOM says to clear storms by 20 miles at that altitude. Apparently a suggestion now. They’ll go right up to the red as they hug around it. I can’t even count how many times I’ve had to say, hey, come more left to avoid something they are gonna skirt the edges of. Pre 2020 it seemed people were better at dodging storms.


ASAP reports prior to Covid were mostly cookie cutter errors, fairly dull, mostly meh. Since Covid, them ASAPs be wild.




All to say, it’s a brave new world. Be careful out there.
 
tlove482 said:
I'm really struggling to understand why she was transmitting all this. Is she unable to do anything to try to fix what's going on? I'm assuming she was the PM but communication is the first thing to go when things start going south.
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She was going like 30,000 fpm descent. Yes she was unable to do anything…

Just fight or flight, they knew they were dead. I mean the other pilot is praying. It was what, 70 seconds long from 35,000 feet… I don’t think there’s any logical way to prepare yourself for that or what you would do.
 
Another huge issue is the normalization of flying in and near that type of weather in Florida. Controllers will vector you right into that stuff and you see people fly though convective activity all the time out there. Today's weather was more severe but it can be real dangerous flying in Florida.
 
tcco94 said:
She was going like 30,000 fpm descent. Yes she was unable to do anything…

Just fight or flight, they knew they were dead. I mean the other pilot is praying. It was what, 70 seconds long from 35,000 feet… I don’t think there’s any logical way to prepare yourself for that or what you would do.
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Brutal. Reminds of of the Adam Air 737 CVR. They are nose down, banked, coming out of the clouds when the see the ground and yank back hard, ripping off the horz stab. The rest of the CVR is filled with Allah o Akbars. Very disturbing CVR to listen to. Here too you can make out some words of the Lords Prayer.


This one is a complete ATC recording, from VASAviation.


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v5dfFoZ_fuQ
 
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