Leaning a C-172

faceof5

New Member
I'm planning a trip accross the Sierras in a couple weeks in a 172N and my destination's field elevation is roughly 5,000. I'm planning on cruising at 9,500.

1) Are you supposed to lean after passing 3,000 continue leaning while still climbing or do I just keep mixture rich while climbing andlean after I level off at cruise altitude? I've had two different instructors teach different methods.

2) Is there an exact "science" or method to leaning? I've had three different instructors just give me their "rule of thumb" without any real explanation.

3) Taking off from a high altitude airport do I lean after startup/taxi or during run-up or right before take off? And I will definitely be doing a short-field TO.

Thanks!
 
supposed to lean after passing 3,000 continue leaning while still climbing

Absolutely.

I've had two different instructors teach different methods.

The POH is a more reliable guide.

Is there an exact "science" or method to leaning? I've had three different instructors just give me their "rule of thumb" without any real explanation.

Yes. Do you have an EGT gauge? Your POH probably has a methodology using that. Do you have a fuel flow gauge? You can lean to the numbers in your performance charts. Or you can lean to roughness, then enrichen.

Taking off from a high altitude airport do I lean after startup/taxi

Always a good idea. Many airplanes will have fouled plugs if you don't do this.

And I will definitely be doing a short-field TO.

Probably overkill, unless the field is very short. Flaps will decrease your rate of climb.
 
1) What I find works best is to bring it a bit leaner after 3000 (about an inch out) just to reduce the fuel burn during climb. Once level, lean it to your planned amount. See below.

2) If you have an EGT, it's usually "lean to peak EGT" which is to say, lean it out little by little while watching the EGT gauge. There is a point where the EGT will stop increasing as you lean. That is peak EGT. I usually keep it a little rich of peak EGT. You can also lean it while watching for an increase of RPM. There will be a point where this increase levels off, you will want to run a bit rich of this point. This only works well when you're straight and level, hence the "guess" during climbout. Remember to increase the mixture if you are adding power. Wait until you've got your power setting in before fine-tuning the mixture.

3) I don't have enough experience with 172's at high-altitude fields to be any help here.
 
I'm planning a trip accross the Sierras in a couple weeks in a 172N and my destination's field elevation is roughly 5,000. I'm planning on cruising at 9,500.

1) Are you supposed to lean after passing 3,000 continue leaning while still climbing or do I just keep mixture rich while climbing and lean after I level off at cruise altitude? I've had two different instructors teach different methods.

Word of advice: there is more to high density altitude flying in an old Cessna 172 than leaning. If you can stop somewhere and get even an hour of dual with an instructor, do it (and we're not even talking about mountain flying, just operating at high D-Alt)

Some of this depends on how your 172 is equipped. The general recommendation for leaning during the climb is about ever 2000'. If you have an EGT, I like about 100° rich of peak for cooling; without an EGT, guestimate it or let it come back to engine roughness, smooth it out and give it an extra 1-2 turns of the vernier. The idea here isn't max power; it's max power plus a factor for cooling in the extended climb.

If you stay full rich throughout the climb, you will either not get anywhere near best power for the altitude or the engine will simply quit for being too rich.

2) Is there an exact "science" or method to leaning? I've had three different instructors just give me their "rule of thumb" without any real explanation.
How exact a science it is depends on the equipment you have. Engine analyzer, very exact; EGT ofule flow meter somewhat exact, none of the above, get the ballpark is what you are looking for.

Consider that the typical POH has you full rich until 3000' density altitude. That suggests that you have at least that much leeway without getting into trouble. Is it better to get closer to the optimum? You bet. And the need for precision seems to increase with altitude. Do a climb without leaning and when the rpm starts to drop, lean, and you'll see a big difference.

3) Taking off from a high altitude airport do I lean after startup/taxi or during run-up or right before take off? And I will definitely be doing a short-field TO.

Thanks!
Definitely lean for taxi and then lean for the run-up and then lean for the takeoff. In that 172, I wouldn't worry about the EGT. You can ballpark taxi pretty well; it's low power where it's a bit less critical (although I have seen over-rich engines quit during taxi).

For run-up, at run-up power, you are looking for max rpm. Lean until you see a reduction in rpm and then bring it back to the maximum you saw along the way. Give three extra full enrichening twists to the vernier.

Those of us who do it all the time and are familiar about how our airplanes perform at high density altitude will stop there. Those three extra twists are =usually= enough to account for the greater power and cooling demands for takeoff and climb.

But it is better to double-check by going to full power briefly and releaning for best power while adding that 1-2 twists I mentioned about the climb. If can be done very quickly.
 
:yeahthat: Listen to midlife. Keep in mind "one inch" in one C172 could be very very different than one inch in another C172.

Read this: http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182084-1.html

For taxi at high altitudes, it might not be a bad idea to lean it until a substantial amount of power would cause the engine to quit (you shouldn't be taxiing at 2000rpm anyway!).

Having spoken to a few mechanics about this issue, there seems to be a pretty general consensus to ere on the side of too rich...spark plugs are cheaper than cylinders. Slightly rich of peak EGT will give you max power anyway. Also like midlife said, fuel is not just for power. A little extra will provide much needed engine cooling.
 
You heading to Lake Tahoe? If so, definitely make sure you have right technique down on takeoff, because you will be circling over the lake for quite a while to make it over the ridge...
 
Almost all of my flying has been from airports above 4500 feet and while there is definitely a concern, I don't think its "AS BIG" as concern that a lot of low landers make it out to be. I have done a few rental checkouts for guys that have done all of their flying at low altitudes and often enough they are sweating the takeoff roll as if the plane isn't going to fly. They are so nervous they can't fly the plane.

Just follow the procedures in your POH for leaning, or as has been said already lean to roughness and enrich a little.

Approx 100 degrees rich of Peak EGT has always worked great for me.
 
Part of our club's procedure is to lean the mixture on the ground. It's not a big deal.

I don't lean until I get to my initial cruising altitude. Then I lean and if I climb from there, I leave the mix alone until I'm at my next altitude and lean again.
 
You need to CAREFULLY consider what you're about to undertake. A trip across the Sierras is not to be taken lightly at ALL. It can certainly be done safely in a 172, but you need to get your ducks in a row way ahead of time as mountain flying can definitely eat your lunch in a hurry. Talk over your proposed route with an experienced instructor. Discuss your leaning strategy. Discuss how weather may affect the flight; if the winds at the peaks are 25 kts or more, postpone the flight. Find out what mountain wave is, how to spot it, and how to avoid its nastier aspects. All in all, I'd suggest picking up a copy of Sparky Imeson's Mountain Flying Bible, it discusses all aspects of traversing the mountains safely.
 
You need to CAREFULLY consider what you're about to undertake. A trip across the Sierras is not to be taken lightly at ALL. It can certainly be done safely in a 172, but you need to get your ducks in a row way ahead of time as mountain flying can definitely eat your lunch in a hurry. Talk over your proposed route with an experienced instructor. Discuss your leaning strategy. Discuss how weather may affect the flight; if the winds at the peaks are 25 kts or more, postpone the flight. Find out what mountain wave is, how to spot it, and how to avoid its nastier aspects. All in all, I'd suggest picking up a copy of Sparky Imeson's Mountain Flying Bible, it discusses all aspects of traversing the mountains safely.

:yeahthat: :yeahthat: :yeahthat:

Mountain flying isn't rocket science, but it's something to be careful with.

Pilots always talk about "having an out" for various situations in flying, and that theme is super critical in mountain flying. Weather is less predictable, aircraft performance decreases, and airports are fewer and farther between. Basically, your margins of safety shrink from every direction.

The best advice I could give is what Aloft already said--talk over your plan with an experienced instructor. And "experienced" doesn't just mean "high time" or even "lots of mountain experience," to me it means "experienced in flying along the specific route you're planning to take."

Local knowledge of specific mountain passes and peaks can be incredibly useful. Every time you stop for fuel, chat with the local pilots for a few minutes and see if they have any tips for the next leg in your journey.

Do those things and I'm sure you'll be fine. Even though mountain flying has its challenges, it can be super fun. Enjoy your trip!
 
Does this ever actually happen? I've taken a C-152 up to 8500-9500 feet without leaning and it ran just fine. I took a PA-28 up to 12,500 once and it ran just fine at full rich as well.
It actually happens in larger engines. That's the whole problem with pilots not really knowing how to lean. All the typical trainers with 100 to 150 HP engines will run, although very rich, at their service altitudes without leaning, but in a larger, say, 300 HP+, it will quit at some point in the climb, and, in fact, may quit while taxiing at full rich.

Pilot flight training should include leaning training, even if the engine you are flying will operate with poor pilot controlled leaning, but it doesn't happen. The training you get depends on the individual instructor. If he has never flown larger engines, the leaning thing is academic. He hasn't had an engine quit from not leaning, or from pushing the mixture full rich at altitude prior to beginning descent.
 
Does this ever actually happen? I've taken a C-152 up to 8500-9500 feet without leaning and it ran just fine. I took a PA-28 up to 12,500 once and it ran just fine at full rich as well.

Well...then you're doing it wrong and are losing engine performance. You also could be hurting the engine by running it too rich. Go out and have an instructor teach you proper leaning procedures.
 
Does this ever actually happen? I've taken a C-152 up to 8500-9500 feet without leaning and it ran just fine. I took a PA-28 up to 12,500 once and it ran just fine at full rich as well.
I've personally seen it happen three times. Once in flight to a student who just refused to lean (I didn't bother to correct him) and twice on the ground (a lowlander who was learning and a pilot in a overloaded Cherokee with his family on board - just glad in that case, the quitting was at the hold short line and not after takeoff).
 
Word of advice: there is more to high density altitude flying in an old Cessna 172 than leaning. If you can stop somewhere and get even an hour of dual with an instructor, do it (and we're not even talking about mountain flying, just operating at high D-Alt)

Some of this depends on how your 172 is equipped. The general recommendation for leaning during the climb is about ever 2000'. If you have an EGT, I like about 100° rich of peak for cooling; without an EGT, guestimate it or let it come back to engine roughness, smooth it out and give it an extra 1-2 turns of the vernier. The idea here isn't max power; it's max power plus a factor for cooling in the extended climb.

If you stay full rich throughout the climb, you will either not get anywhere near best power for the altitude or the engine will simply quit for being too rich.

How exact a science it is depends on the equipment you have. Engine analyzer, very exact; EGT ofule flow meter somewhat exact, none of the above, get the ballpark is what you are looking for.

Consider that the typical POH has you full rich until 3000' density altitude. That suggests that you have at least that much leeway without getting into trouble. Is it better to get closer to the optimum? You bet. And the need for precision seems to increase with altitude. Do a climb without leaning and when the rpm starts to drop, lean, and you'll see a big difference.

Definitely lean for taxi and then lean for the run-up and then lean for the takeoff. In that 172, I wouldn't worry about the EGT. You can ballpark taxi pretty well; it's low power where it's a bit less critical (although I have seen over-rich engines quit during taxi).

For run-up, at run-up power, you are looking for max rpm. Lean until you see a reduction in rpm and then bring it back to the maximum you saw along the way. Give three extra full enrichening twists to the vernier.

Those of us who do it all the time and are familiar about how our airplanes perform at high density altitude will stop there. Those three extra twists are =usually= enough to account for the greater power and cooling demands for takeoff and climb.

But it is better to double-check by going to full power briefly and releaning for best power while adding that 1-2 twists I mentioned about the climb. If can be done very quickly.


Listen to MidlifeFlyer advice I did a lot of flying in Denver CO and his procedures are like the one's we used as well. One more thing to add, do calculate your density alt and weight and balance before you go. A lot of people get into trouble when they neglect those in high alt country.

Also the take off happens slower, takes more ground speed and lift off is not what you're used to. It is best to get some dual if you can.
 
Lean it out until you get a RPM change then richen it by 3 turns.

This is the way I was taught actually. Do this at Cruise and for Taxi. Was never taught to lean on the way up. On the way down, slowly increase the mixture as you descend, trying to keep the EGT in the same basic place.

Now that I have seen so many different takes on leaning, I wonder, is there anywhere on the net that gives some good discussion on leaning practice? I know it is in the POH of the plane you are operating too.
 
Here is an excerpt on leaning from Whittsflying.com

Proper leaning can set engine power parameters for best range, maximum endurance, best economy, best speed, or anything in between. Best economy runs the engine at peak power. This is the top of the EGT scale. The best power is slightly richer by about 100 degrees EGT temperature. This uses more fuel with a slight improvement in airspeed. Modern engines can be operated with manifold pressures of square or even over square (manifold pressure higher than RPM) without harm. Cruise power settings lower than 75% can be flown at peak EGT.

The standard leaning procedure is to lean by pulling the mixture until the engine runs rough, and then turn it in until it smooths out. If using an EGT, pull the mixture until the EGT gauge read as high as it will go. You may need to reposition the EGT needle if it goes all the way to the top. Once it has stabilized at a high point that the engine has gone rough, enrich the mixture to get at least a fifty-degree drop. Proper leaning will coincide
Witha throttle back to full idle, fuel flow is set by the idle adjust screw. Full idle is usually about 600 RPM in light aircraft engines. At idle you cannot taxi nor keep the engine running if the weather is cold.

Typically, 800-1200 RPM are the ground operating speeds. At these power settings leaning has noticeable effect. You should lean regardless of the fuel used. At these powers leaning can be done until the engine coughs; then enrich a bit. An engine that dies when you add power is a good indicator of correct low power leaning. You cannot damage the engine by leaning It is possible to foul the plugs if you do not lean enough, regardless of the fuel used.
By operating an engine at low temperatures with a rich mixture you are sure to reap a harvest of carbon deposits. With leaded fuel you will harvest lead deposits. Proper leaning will solve the carbon-fouling problem but will not prevent lead fouling. Only by keeping the engine temperatures high enough to keep all the lead vaporized can you prevent lead fouling. The leaner the mixture the hotter the engine and the less fuel to supply lead needing vaporization.
One of the most common operating problems is on starting. The throttle is in so far as to cause the engine to operate at relatively high power before the oil has had a chance to circulate. A surging engine start will cause excessive wear throughout the engine. Abusive operation may involve taxiing at high power and holding the brakes on to keep the speed down. This can use 50 hours of steel off the camshaft and scuff the pistons against cylinders. Keep the starting rpm low and let the oil work before moving. If it is cold the oil will be so thick that some oil passages will be plugged, you will get squirts instead of sprays and there won't be much splash for the splash-lubricated parts. High starting oil pressure is indicative of plugged passages.
If you have ever taken an air filter and cowling off and observed the action and location of the throttle (accelerator) pump vs the prime (look where the primer activated fuel goes in) you will see the wisdom of NOT pumping the throttle to prime. Also it is important to prime and then IMMEDIATELY turn the starter, as even he primer fuel will drain down to the carb and intake box. The intake box is where you DO NOT want the fuel to be. I am talking about typical Lycoming carb on the bottom trainers and the like.
Abusive engine operation creates thermal shock to the engine and its parts. Ideally every engine would be preheated. 110V preheat systems now exist. Pre-oilers are in existence. Every cold engine start has metal to metal parts scraping each other without oil film separation. Abrupt throttle operation, cowl flaps, and rpm adjustments cause variations in heat and cooling sufficient to damage even the most rugged of engines. Do what it takes to keep the engine warm within its operating temperatures and avoid extremes of heat and cooling.

Keeping an engine log can prevent some failures. Keep a record of fuel flow, oil pressure, temperatures, and electrical readings. Record oil consumption and changes. Have the oil lab checked for metal to determine what and how much wear is occurring. Some is normal but too much of one kind is significant. Poor lubrication causes excessive wear.

You can take better care of your engine if you avoid those throttle changes that cause sudden heat changes. Abrupt throttle movements cause cylinder head, exhaust header and turbo cracks. A sudden power application or sudden shut down (As when stopping) can cause bearings to coke up, overheat and seize. Counterweights can be de-tuned by sudden throttle movement.

Under certain conditions an engine may be unable to obtain fuel to the carburetor due to vapor lock. If the fuel lines have curves that allow the formation of hot air pockets the fuel may be unable to force its way through the blockage. A hot engine compartment may make it impossible to start the engine and under certain conditions the blockage may exceed the ability of a pump or gravity to move the fuel. A dent or a crimp in a fuel line can decrease fuel flow ability. A dent in a fuel injector line is particularly dangerous where takeoff performance is required.

A pilot who has predetermined power and configuration to be used in a journey is reducing his piloting workload. He knows ahead of time the Vy/Vy speeds to be used in climb. He has picked an altitude for winds and fuel efficiency, he pre-plans his descent to make the best use of altitude for airspeed, and arrives at the pattern for an efficient arrival. Additionally, he knows the trim, mixture and power changes before the needs occur.

The bible of engine operation is the POH but each aircraft model year varies so only a POH specific to the aircraft and year should be used. When an aircraft is a mixed breed such as having a later engine different than that of the aircraft year, you must develop your own POH.

Lycoming has some very specific suggestions for high performance aircraft. Don't lean below 5000' when using climb power. Don't reduce manifold pressure over five inches at one instance. Better to do one-inch every one-minute. Maintain 15 inches during descent with rpm set to lowest cruise to prevent piston flutter. Fixed propeller operations should be limited to 400-rpm reductions at a time. Descents faster than high cruise and more than 1000 fpm are not recommended.
Leaning is performed to get the maximum power with the best air to fuel mix. Excess fuel will cool the engine, but too much can dilute the oil needed to lubricate the cylinder wall. This causes excessive engine wear. An excessively rich mixture tends to foul plugs in smaller engines. A lean mixture will gives better power, but excessive leaning will cause higher temperatures in the combustion chamber.. Excessive leaning over a period of time can cause serious engine problems and lack of power. Aircraft with an exhaust gas temp gauge, (EGT) gives positive indicators in the leaning needed to attain best operation. Without the EGT lean by incrementally pulling the mixture until the engine noticeably loses power and then put the mixture in until you get the max rpm back. This setting is correct for a specific altitude for that time. Any other altitude or time requires new settings.
Partial power takeoffs are worse for engine than the use of full power. Full throttle opens up a fuel jet that allows extra (cooling and not used) fuel to enter the cylinders. This can be demonstrated if you have a cylinder head temperature gauge.
 
One from Embry-Riddle:
The Red Knob
By TROY VANDERHEI
Those who check the discrepancies on aircraft often see multiple write-ups for excessive magneto drops or a rough running engine. These are obvious signs of improper leaning procedures. So, what is the proper leaning technique and how often should it be employed? What happens to engines that are run excessively rich or excessively lean?
The purpose of leaning is to achieve proper ignition of the fuel-air mixture. Having the proper fuel-air mixture is what keeps the engine running smoothly. Excessively rich mixtures lead to increased fuel consumption, spark plug fouling, and increased cylinder wear. Engines that are run excessively lean will suffer burnt valves and produce higher then normal cylinder and engine temperatures.
To avoid damaging the engine, leaning should be employed prior to taxi, before takeoff, and after leveling off. The mixture should be re-leaned following any altitude change. During a long climb out, leaning should be done periodically throughout the climb. Leaning should also be done on the ground after landing. Furthermore, it is necessary to keep the engine lean on the ground during hot days to prevent spark plug fouling. Although leaning procedures are normally universal, it is recommended pilots read the aircraft’s POH for the exact steps. These procedures are located on pages 4-13 in the Duchess’s POH, pages 4-19 for the Cessna 172N and pages 4-26 for the Cessna 172S. Leaning the aircraft’s engine correctly takes practice, plus a trained ear will aid that process.
 
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