Law Interpretation - Safety Pilot/PIC

J

JAMattyDizzle

New Member
Alright guys, this had me thinking alot. My buddy this weekend wanted me as a safety pilot on a flight to pick up his friend, then back to our original point. If the weather wasn't actual instrument, he wants to log simulated instrument time. The problem is, i am not 90-day current. the question is, can i log PIC, and can i legally act as PIC?

Here's my thought: for the first half, i can legally act as PIC because the 90-day currency reg doesn't limit me.

61.57 - no person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers or of an aircraft certificated for more than one pilot flight crewmember unless that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings within the preceding 90 days.
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I'm neither one of those ... the flight will be in a Piper Warrior, and the passenger isn't gonna fly until the return trip.

As far as logging, i can do that as well on the return trip. Since i'm acting as PIC, i don't see why i can't log it. Simulated instrument requires 2 pilots - PIC and safety.

61.51 e iii - Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
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However, on the return trip, i definately cannot act as PIC because of the passenger on board. So i made sure he's both instrument and 90-day current. BUT, i can STILL log PIC because of 61.51 requiring more than one pilot.

Sorry it's long, but i want to make sure i'm not breaking any regs. Please correct me if i am wrong.
 
Sounds like you just need to go do some touch and goes.... you can knock 3 out in what, .4?

RD
 
My understanding is that you do not have be qualified to act as PIC in order to serve as safety pilot. Holding a valid medical and a cert in cat/class is enough. However, if you want to serve as safety pilot and you want to log PIC while doing it, then you must be qualified to act as PIC. If you're not 90 day current, can you legally act as PIC with another live human in the plane? You cannot. Therefore you cannot say I will act as PIC and be responsible for this flight while you do the flying.

And given that you will leave a clear paper trail in your logbook which any fed will be able to find, is logging that hour really worth taking the risk of having to explain why you believed it was legal years down the line? It wouldn't be worth the risk to me. Especially when you can just go log three landings and get yourself clearly and firmly legal by anyone's definition. Go log some landings and be done with it.
 
JAMattyDizzle said:
Alright guys, this had me thinking alot. My buddy this weekend wanted me as a safety pilot on a flight to pick up his friend, then back to our original point. If the weather wasn't actual instrument, he wants to log simulated instrument time. The problem is, i am not 90-day current. the question is, can i log PIC, and can i legally act as PIC?

Here's my thought: for the first half, i can legally act as PIC because the 90-day currency reg doesn't limit me.
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Why doesn't it limit you?

If you're not landing current you can't act as PIC on a flight with a passenger. When your friend isn't actively flying under the hood - , he's just a passenger.

You can still do the flight with your friend under the hood but you would be safety pilot/SIC instead of PIC.

As far as logging, i can do that as well on the return trip. Since i'm acting as PIC, i don't see why i can't log it. Simulated instrument requires 2 pilots - PIC and safety.

**

However, on the return trip, i definately cannot act as PIC because of the passenger on board. So i made sure he's both instrument and 90-day current. BUT, i can STILL log PIC because of 61.51 requiring more than one pilot.
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Now I'm confused. First you say you are acting as PIC on the return trip then you say you're not.
 
Sounds like you just need to go do some touch and goes.... you can knock 3 out in what, .4?
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Flights are expensive down here. and there aren't any closer airports with better deals. I have to fly 1 hr with an instructor to meet their insurance purposes. so that's 150 + 70 + tax. Yes i can knock them out in .3 if i want. but their insurace company sucks. So it's like what ... about $230 to get current? not worth it ...

To clarify things, the first half is 2 people, me acting as as a safety pilot and my friend who is PIC. the 2nd half has a third person just being a passenger.

Now I'm confused. First you say you are acting as PIC on the return trip then you say you're not.

Mark
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oops ... my bad. that's a typo. i meant to say i can log on the trip going, but the return, i can't log that.

Why not do your currency landings with your friend prior to flying?
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The insurance doesn't cover me unless i do the "refresher" flight with an instructor hired with the company instead of another pilot who is current under their insurance. And, it has to be at least an hr. Again, it sucks.

But thinking about it, i just won't log it. too much risk involved.
 
Why would you have to be 90 day current that's for carrying passengers. You aren't doing any of the landings I assume. This is the rare case where 2 pilots are pic, but once his hood is up I assume he will still be sole manipulator of the controls still which would then make YOU the passenger at that point.

I think you are misinterperating the aircraft requiring more than one pilot thing. They are talking about aircraft requiring a co pilot.

You aren't PIC you are just able to log PIC because you are keeping track of everything outside. I say log it, you aren't in the left seat, if he comes back with the passenger under the hood then you can log it, he is still carrying the passenger he is sole manipulator.
 
I agree with inverted. On takeoff he is the PIC and you are the passenger. Once in flight and he puts the hood on, you become Acting PIC and he logs PIC as sole manipulator therefore no passengers, only 2 crewmembers. Then before he lands the hood comes off and now you are a passenger again. Sounds legal to me as you were never PIC with passengers onboard nor is the aircraft certified for more than one pilot crewmembers as required with 61.57.
 
I would say log PIC on the way there.

On the way back since you cant ACT as PIC (because your carrying a passenger without being current), log it as SIC.
 
DPApilot said:
It does when the *acting* PIC is under the hood.
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When the person under the hood is acting PIC the safety pilot is able to log PIC. To log SIC the person would have to take off the hood, and the aircraft would have to require a 2 person crew. Why would you want to log SIC anyway. You can log PIC so SIC shouldnt even come into play.
 
Inverted said:
When the person under the hood is acting PIC the safety pilot is able to log PIC. To log SIC the person would have to take off the hood, and the aircraft would have to require a 2 person crew. Why would you want to log SIC anyway. You can log PIC so SIC shouldnt even come into play.
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91.109(b):
No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless - (1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.
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Makes the safety pilot "required crew"



:EDIT:

Nevermind, reading comprehension FAIL. Read "sic" as "pic" in your first post.
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Inverted said:
When the person under the hood is acting PIC the safety pilot is able to log PIC. To log SIC the person would have to take off the hood, and the aircraft would have to require a 2 person crew. Why would you want to log SIC anyway. You can log PIC so SIC shouldnt even come into play.
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FAIL
:D


SIC is still valuable, It still counts as Total Time. You cant log PIC if you cant ACT as PIC unless your the sole manipulator
 
Inverted said:
You wouldnt be able to log SIC since under 91 a Piper Warrier doesnt require a 2 person crew.
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You are making a common misinterpretation of the rule.

Here, read what the FAA Chief Counsel said about it back in '93:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...0/interpretations/data/interps/1993/Hicks.rtf

Summarizing:
  • Because of the 91.109 requirement for a safty pilot, a flight with a pilot under the hood is a flight requireing more than one pilot under the regs.
  • If the safety pilot is acting as PIC on the flight, she may log PIC under 61.51(e)(I)(iii) (in this case, the safety pilot must be qualified to act as PIC)
  • If the safety pilot is not acting as PIC, the safety pilot may log SIC under 61.51(f)(2)
 
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