Latest Eagle AIP rejected

Derg said:
If "The Money" wants to run an airline, they'll be back to the negotiating table, of course, after few weeks (months?) of a "FUD" campaign (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt).

It's a normal, wholly expected part of the process. But they will use this time to build leverage at the negotiating table.
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I've seen that movie too! My leveraged buyout is going just swimmingly, btw.
 
Derg said:
If "The Money" wants to run an airline, they'll be back to the negotiating table, of course, after few weeks (months?) of a "FUD" campaign (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt).

It's a normal, wholly expected part of the process. But they will use this time to build leverage at the negotiating table.
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Well, if you read the Eagle's MEC Letter they are done talking to the company....
 
Screaming_Emu said:
So...if that is your logic. When exactly should one actually stand up and say enough is enough? What, in your opinion would be the line that has to be crossed before regional pilots stand up and say no?
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You aren't reading. I didn't say that they were wrong to vote no. In fact, I've said several times that I probably would have voted no myself if I was in their shoes. But if you're voting no just because you think it's a bluff, you're an idiot. If you're voting no because you know it's not a bluff, and you just don't care because you're not willing to go any lower, then there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, some might call it admirable. I just have a feeling that this vote was based upon the former, not the latter.
 
Derg said:
I don't think Pedro has any idea if it's a bluff or not.

It's all up to the board.

Eagle ALPA and every Eagle management aren't the King and Queen in the chess game, they're more or less rooks, knights and bishops.
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As much as pilots on here are smacking each other on the ass saying 'GOOD JOB', management does the same thing. While Pedro isn't the King or Queen, Doug Parker and the American Board of Directors are. What do you think Doug is telling the Board today what needs to be done with the Eagle Pilots? Do you think he wants to lose face and go back to the table to talk to the Eagle Pilots after the communication they put out?

As @ATN_Pilot said, not hard to see what is going to happen next. I hope the Eagle Pilots are ok with that.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
So...if that is your logic. When exactly should one actually stand up and say enough is enough? What, in your opinion would be the line that has to be crossed before regional pilots stand up and say no?
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I don't think Todd was saying it was a bad idea, just what one likely outcome was. A smaller operation that has a better contract isn't a bad thing.

The rules of the game, as they exist now, are essentially musical chairs. Small regional, adding equipment, has a more junior workforce, and with it lower costs. Contracts go to that regional. Until the music stops, and they are suddenly more expensive, because they can't double in size forever. Force pay concessions, bankruptcy, then shut it down. Then the new equipment goes to someplace much smaller...
 
ATN_Pilot said:
You aren't reading. I didn't say that they were wrong to vote no. In fact, I've said several times that I probably would have voted no myself if I was in their shoes. But if you're voting no just because you think it's a bluff, you're an idiot. If you're voting no because you know it's not a bluff, and you just don't care because you're not willing to go any lower, then there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, some might call it admirable. I just have a feeling that this vote was based upon the former, not the latter.
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That is the problem most NO voters are putting together their new list of wants because they believe the company will come crawling back to us. Me I was going to be a NO vote knowing it more than likely was the end of Eagle, I am updating my logbook and asking for help from just about everyone.
 
Seggy said:
Well, if you read the Eagle's MEC Letter they are done talking to the company....
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If you read the rest their communications you'd see that they threatened shut us down and have now said "eagle will not shut down." They also wanted to wrap this up in January and that did not happen. Your point, while not inaccurate, finalizes nothing. I don't believe they will come back, personally - we have to lie in this bed now. But just because a lower tier operator put it in an e-mail does not make it true.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
I don't think Todd was saying it was a bad idea, just what one likely outcome was. A smaller operation that has a better contract isn't a bad thing.

The rules of the game, as they exist now, are essentially musical chairs. Small regional, adding equipment, has a more junior workforce, and with it lower costs. Contracts go to that regional. Until the music stops, and they are suddenly more expensive, because they can't double in size forever. Force pay concessions, bankruptcy, then shut it down. Then the new equipment goes to someplace much smaller...
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Right. But saying we are all replaceable (which is true) so we should be happy for the table scraps we get, pretty much implies that it's not worth fighting for improvements.

And as long as we have spineless pilots out there who aren't willing to at least TRY to say no, things will continue down the current path.

I can't speak for the eagle guys, but my no vote at XJT is absolutely a "we need to fix this or die trying."

I love my job, and I'm damn good at it. But eventually, continued years of financial sacrifice for a sliver of a chance to play in the big leagues...or even upgrade becomes enough that you become willing to play chicken.
 
roundout said:
If you read the rest their communications you'd see that they threatened shut us down and have now said "eagle will not shut down."
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They can run it as a ground handling operation. Not saying they will, but they can.

Also, as American Eagle encompasses the RAH 175s they might not have wanted to say 'Eagle will shut down' to prevent any media confusion.

I don't believe they will come back, personally - we have to lie in this bed now.
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Well, you are looking at it pragmatically. Best of luck. I hope it does work out.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
You aren't reading. I didn't say that they were wrong to vote no. In fact, I've said several times that I probably would have voted no myself if I was in their shoes. But if you're voting no just because you think it's a bluff, you're an idiot. If you're voting no because you know it's not a bluff, and you just don't care because you're not willing to go any lower, then there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, some might call it admirable. I just have a feeling that this vote was based upon the former, not the latter.
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I'd say your assessment is accurate. Some were no just because they hate management. Some want to burn it down because their own career has been different than what they planned. Some are fed up. Some of us are more cerebral. But the bottom line is that this decision affects real people - kids, wives, etc.. Some people lost sight of that in their rage. But thank you for not grouping us all as to a bunch of brainwashed idiots.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I only said the first part, not the second. Stop putting words in my mouth, thank you.
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I'm not putting words in your mouth, but rather reading some of the implications of the ones you really are saying.

If we are truly replaceable (which I agree with) how do we get improvements? This section of the industry NEEDS to improve.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
I'm not putting words in your mouth, but rather reading some of the implications of the ones you really are saying.

If we are truly replaceable (which I agree with) how do we get improvements? This section of the industry NEEDS to improve.
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By bending over for management and taking not-concessions for flow, duh.
 
And, emotional or not, stuff is about to get worse. They've now stated clearly that our CRJs will be leaving. So displacements are sure to follow, no? Can they scare enough people to leave that no furloughs will required? We have a contract now which offers furlough protection.....will it hold up or will it be ignored, like illegal turnbacks, unlimited ot, and other contractual annoyances? How many "burn it down" guys considered all this? And don't get me wrong, I'm fed up - no voter to the unemployment line, but that's only after analyzing numbers, trends, and history. I hope the other guys are ok with what we've done. I know one captain with 4 kids, wife doesn't work, who is a "burn" vote. That's a BIG gamble.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
I'm not putting words in your mouth, but rather reading some of the implications of the ones you really are saying.

If we are truly replaceable (which I agree with) how do we get improvements? This section of the industry NEEDS to improve.
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Honestly, the only way I see is for some to "take one for the team." I see no other way to attain leverage but to eliminate some of the competition for feed. It's just too crowded a market for the limited amount of business that exists now.
 
And excuse my excitement for not only Eagle's MEC standing up to the company but also my own pilot group. It isn't a misguided "oh wow, we told them." Instead I'm happy that a pilot group is finally at least ATTEMPTING to stand up to management to improve our situations. It has been a long bunch of years for all of us. Our companies have been repeatedly asking us to do more with less.

While this could very well end poorly for the pilot groups involved, including my own. It really is now or never. Between the new rest and pilot experience rules that have come into effect, now is as good a time as ever to try to improve our positions. It might still not be ideal, but its probably about as good as its going to get.

I'm excited that we're at least giving it a try, because sitting and waiting certainly hasn't yielded results so far.
 
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