Latest Eagle AIP rejected

[Screaming_Emu]

I agree that that is also a problem. But that ultimately comes back to the same root cause: pilots can't keep their Type A personalities in check. They can't accept the idea of there being a centralized power that can tell them what to do in negotiations, so they insist upon local control.

That's actually why I lean left politically. Looking at states and companies alike, we are a lot more the same than we are different. We all have roads that need tended for, health care that needs provided, etc. State by state most of these things are exactly the same. I see no problem with having one centralized government running all that stuff. Leave things that are more specific to a certain state/company (maybe game and wildlife) to be run by the local, because they really will be the experts on it.

 

[derg]

Here's food for thought- if the company really doesn't care what we do and will just shut us down, why would they care how we approach this?

I got it straight from my captain rep's mouth that the company is MAD that the union wasn't out actively selling this TA.

Why would the company care, really, if it didn't really matter and they had the cards?

Other regional carriers is why.

Management knows that all eyes are on regional negotiations now. Comair was a 'lesson' to the other regionals. Eagle will probably serve as a 'lesson' to other regionals as well and it will certainly affect how surviving carriers negotiate capacity agreements with mainline and how those carriers negotiate with labor.

"Sign here at the threat of "Gettin' Eagled", folks"

The other airlines will see the last company demand as some sort of a 'baseline' and look at their contracts and think, "Crap, we've at least got it better than that, well, back to the coal mines".

Follow the money.

 

[roundout]

Other regional carriers is why.

Management knows that all eyes are on regional negotiations now. Comair was a 'lesson' to the other regionals. Eagle will probably serve as a 'lesson' to other regionals as well and it will certainly affect how surviving carriers negotiate capacity agreements with mainline and how those carriers negotiate with labor.

"Sign here at the threat of "Gettin' Eagled", folks"

The other airlines will see the last company demand as some sort of a 'baseline' and look at their contracts and think, "Crap, we've at least got it better than that, well, back to the coal mines".

Follow the money.

I agree. This proposal cost management very little and have the potential to save a lot. We may live, we may die, but we and xjt have certainly altered the playing field, for better or for worse.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Other regional carriers is why.

Management knows that all eyes are on regional negotiations now. Comair was a 'lesson' to the other regionals. Eagle will probably serve as a 'lesson' to other regionals as well and it will certainly affect how surviving carriers negotiate capacity agreements with mainline and how those carriers negotiate with labor.

"Sign here at the threat of "Gettin' Eagled", folks"

The other airlines will see the last company demand as some sort of a 'baseline' and look at their contracts and think, "Crap, we've at least got it better than that, well, back to the coal mines".

Follow the money.

Maybe. Or maybe there just isn't enough among the existing pilot ranks to cover 170 airplanes. That's a mighty lot of effort to make an example. And this isn't 2007- it's 2014, and the landscape has changed quite a bit.

Bill Sprague elaborates here:
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/...on-to-turn-down-american-eagle-contract.html/

 

[Eagle421flyer]

I'm sorry if I've missed something I've only skimmed the whole thread....flows are designed to help staff the regional's...not actually get you to a major, if they were I would have been at CAL years ago and not have gotten furloughed when when everyone "flowed back" but then I never got to flow up. Just my 2 cents for what its worth....regional's will still be around (the pay rates will probably go up some I hope) but in the end it's too expensive for mainline to have mainline pilots flying what the regional's are now (unless they ask mainline for concessions). Ultimately it's about the almighty dollar and the sad fact is even if (when) regional guys make more it will still be less than mainline guys = cheaper for mainlines to continue farming out flying. Rinse, wash, repeat.

 

[Gonzo]

I got it straight from my captain rep's mouth that the company is MAD that the union wasn't out actively selling this TA.

You do realize aside from some Eagle pilots nobody believes a word out of Val's mouth? Nobody I have ever talked to outside of Eagle that has met or worked with Val has anything nice to say about him.

 

[embraer07]

Maybe. Or maybe there just isn't enough among the existing pilot ranks to cover 170 airplanes. That's a mighty lot of effort to make an example. And this isn't 2007- it's 2014, and the landscape has changed quite a bit.

Bill Sprague elaborates here:
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/...on-to-turn-down-american-eagle-contract.html/

You listen to Ray and his tea party militia a little too much. He has been beating this drum since 2012: there is nobody who can replace us. The whole NO vote charge was led by that mantra.

What many of you failed to realize is they don't need one company to replace our flying. Slicing up our operation among three carriers would suffice. Piedmont and Air Wisconsin are due for fleet replacements.

Not to mention Mesa. Ray, Val, and the rest of them don't like to talk about it...but Mesa has been having no trouble hiring. In fact word is they have a very large number of people in their hiring pool right now.

Another thing. The Eagle Loungers made a big joke out of the flow we were being offered. Aside from the fact that many of them are in fact flowing to AA in a few months it was disgusting to dismiss the flow the way they did.

Never underestimate the value of a quick upgrade and subsequent flow to mainline to a CFI. Maybe too many people at Eagle have been here too long to remember what it is like, but a CFI bumping around in a Cessna all day will follow the upgrade time. Add to that a guaranteed flow to mainline without even needing to interview and you will have no problem hiring.

Prospective pilots are being more selective these days but they are not in short supply like our Union keeps saying. They are not lining up for the likes of Great Lakes or Republic anymore but they are going to Skywest and Mesa. Both those companies have a contract and are growing. That attracts new hires. With the AIP we would have as well.

 

[derg]

Maybe. Or maybe there just isn't enough among the existing pilot ranks to cover 170 airplanes. That's a mighty lot of effort to make an example. And this isn't 2007- it's 2014, and the landscape has changed quite a bit.

Bill Sprague elaborates here:
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/...on-to-turn-down-american-eagle-contract.html/

I'm not sure I would hang a career on the idea that they can't cover flying for 170 airplanes because they can. It wouldn't be pretty, overnight or convenient but they could.

Here's a historical example on a much, much smaller scale.

Back during the "Larry Risely" days at Mesa when Midwest Express had a contract with Air Midwest to fly a fleet of 1900s to feed their MKE operation, Mesa was the "carrier of only option" for a lot of airlines and they certainly acted like it.

Rapid growth from a carrier flying cabin class pistons, Caravans and Beech 1300's into flying 1900's, Brasilias and Fokkers and they got a little "I'm the only surviving male on a desert island full of desperate women".

Midwest Express wanted some changes made, their operation tightened up and expected quality to match their Midwest Express brand of "all first class service" for their loyal passengers.

It was like this scene with Judge Smails in Caddyshack:



…largely because what airline can afford to not only serve it's customers and replace their Mesa feed?

Midwest Express wiggled out of their contract with catlike quickness, formed Astral Aviation with 1900D's with most of the same pilots and kicked Mesa and their 1900C's to the curb in what seemed like a commercial break.

The road forward is going to be treacherous, scary, and maddening and it's just begun. Eagle, as you now it, may survive, they may not — it 100% depends on what the "money" wants because the "money" is going to give Doug Parker his marching orders. That may be instructions to come back with an agreement and move forward, that may be to scale the company down.

Think of bankruptcy like a wagon train. The board holds the yoke but labor and even your CEO are pretty far back in the wagon by the dry provisions and the barrels of water.

I'm glad that a pilot group has decided to stand up for itself. Absolutely. But keep the high fives and "Yeeeeeeeeeah, so SUCK IT PSA!" to a minimum as the real scary stuff, and hard work hasn't even started yet and keep your powder dry.

 

[Firebird2XC]

You listen to Ray and his tea party militia a little too much. He has been beating this drum since 2012: there is nobody who can replace us. The whole NO vote charge was led by that mantra.

What many of you failed to realize is they don't need one company to replace our flying. Slicing up our operation among three carriers would suffice. Piedmont and Air Wisconsin are due for fleet replacements.

Not to mention Mesa. Ray, Val, and the rest of them don't like to talk about it...but Mesa has been having no trouble hiring. In fact word is they have a very large number of people in their hiring pool right now.

Another thing. The Eagle Loungers made a big joke out of the flow we were being offered. Aside from the fact that many of them are in fact flowing to AA in a few months it was disgusting to dismiss the flow the way they did.

Never underestimate the value of a quick upgrade and subsequent flow to mainline to a CFI. Maybe too many people at Eagle have been here too long to remember what it is like, but a CFI bumping around in a Cessna all day will follow the upgrade time. Add to that a guaranteed flow to mainline without even needing to interview and you will have no problem hiring.

Prospective pilots are being more selective these days but they are not in short supply like our Union keeps saying. They are not lining up for the likes of Great Lakes or Republic anymore but they are going to Skywest and Mesa. Both those companies have a contract and are growing. That attracts new hires. With the AIP we would have as well.

I've never listened to Ray. This is my opinion and it always has been. But please, continue jumping to paranoid conclusions all you like. It's a free country.

 

[Maurus]

Pinnacle was able to squeeze something of a 'preferential interview' during a time they virtually had no leverage.

Exactly how can XJT or RAH negotiate for something similar? Delta is tapped out. AA isn't a big part of XJT flying so it wouldn't be a benefit for them. United doesn't want to give anyone such a benefit. Any way you look at it, it hurts pilots at other airlines that are not wholly owned.

The only way we can "compete" is to match their cost structure, but we can not get the same airline growth or movement that these guys have been provided with in exchange so all that is left for management to push is the same pay and benefit package - the career progression.

 

[hcaeborev]

Well done gentlemen (and your elected leadership).

I needed a pick-me-up during commuter hell this morning...Hot college chicks in volleyball shorts fits the bill....

Kudos.

O yea....and congrats to the eagle MEC.

 

[Firebird2XC]

I'm not sure I would hang a career on the idea that they can't cover flying for 170 airplanes because they can. It wouldn't be pretty, overnight or convenient but they could.

Here's a historical example on a much, much smaller scale.

Back during the "Larry Risely" days at Mesa when Midwest Express had a contract with Air Midwest to fly a fleet of 1900s to feed their MKE operation, Mesa was the "carrier of only option" for a lot of airlines and they certainly acted like it.

Rapid growth from a carrier flying cabin class pistons, Caravans and Beech 1300's into flying 1900's, Brasilias and Fokkers and they got a little "I'm the only surviving male on a desert island full of desperate women".

Midwest Express wanted some changes made, their operation tightened up and expected quality to match their Midwest Express brand of "all first class service" for their loyal passengers.

It was like this scene with Judge Smails in Caddyshack:



…largely because what airline can afford to not only serve it's customers and replace their Mesa feed?

Midwest Express wiggled out of their contract with catlike quickness, formed Astral Aviation with 1900D's with most of the same pilots and kicked Mesa and their 1900C's to the curb in what seemed like a commercial break.

The road forward is going to be treacherous, scary, and maddening and it's just begun. Eagle, as you now it, may survive, they may not — it 100% depends on what the "money" wants because the "money" is going to give Doug Parker his marching orders. That may be instructions to come back with an agreement and move forward, that may be to scale the company down.

Think of bankruptcy like a wagon train. The board holds the yoke but labor and even your CEO are pretty far back in the wagon by the dry provisions and the barrels of water.

I'm glad that a pilot group has decided to stand up for itself. Absolutely. But keep the high fives and "Yeeeeeeeeeah, so SUCK IT PSA!" to a minimum as the real scary stuff, and hard work hasn't even started yet and keep your powder dry.

You told the ex-soldier to keep my powder dry. You're cute. I like you.

Once again- a different time. Time is one of the key metrics of any battlefield, and like I said, I've grown accustomed to the idea of this career being an endless war for what I've earned.

 

[embraer07]

I've never listened to Ray. This is my opinion and it always has been. But please, continue jumping to paranoid conclusions all you like. It's a free country.

Oh, it's paranoia? Today somebody here asked Pedro what will happen now, and this was his reply:

I do not know what your LEC has told you about the MEC decision yesterday, but American has made clear will not place any new aircraft at Eagle / Envoy.

There would be no purpose in negotiating over this again.

American engaged Eagle-ALPA at ALPA’s urging for the second time late last year, the parties reached an AIP on 1/10, and then the MEC pulled the plug yesterday.

It is sad that some people at the MEC believe that there is a “2nd bite at the apple.”

Pedro


Go rant all over Facebook now. You sure put on a pretty show these past couple of months with your unhinged speeches. Now what do you have to say? They are still bluffing?

 

[Firebird2XC]

You do realize aside from some Eagle pilots nobody believes a word out of Val's mouth? Nobody I have ever talked to outside of Eagle that has met or worked with Val has anything nice to say about him.

Since when have you know me to lump in with others. I trust Val. You underestimate him.

We need more like him.

 

[Gonzo]

United doesn't want to give anyone such a benefit.

Might want to recheck that. I am hearing United wants to do it the right way, they are just having a problem finding a regional partners willing to work with them. My understanding is if they had a wholly-owned regional it would be up and running. @Seggy anything to add?

 

[Firebird2XC]

Oh, it's paranoia? Today somebody here asked Pedro what will happen now, and this was his reply:

I do not know what your LEC has told you about the MEC decision yesterday, but American has made clear will not place any new aircraft at Eagle / Envoy.
There would be no purpose in negotiating over this again.

American engaged Eagle-ALPA at ALPA’s urging for the second time late last year, the parties reached an AIP on 1/10, and then the MEC pulled the plug yesterday.

It is sad that some people at the MEC believe that there is a “2nd bite at the apple.”

Pedro


Go rant all over Facebook now. You sure put on a pretty show these past couple of months with your unhinged speeches. Now what do you have to say? They are still bluffing?

'Somebody' asked him? Source?

 

[unclenobby]

Not to mention Mesa. Ray, Val, and the rest of them don't like to talk about it...but Mesa has been having no trouble hiring. In fact word is they have a very large number of people in their hiring pool right now..

Of course Mesa has a pool. They interview and hire over the phone. Who in their right mind would say no to a job offer over the phone, get a firm class date then shop around for other options! For Mesa it creates a false sense of demand "we have a pool of applicants get in now".

The real barometer is how many people show up, get through and stay.

 

[embraer07]

'Somebody' asked him? Source?

It wasn't me so I won't reveal people's identity over the internet. But you are free to send Pedro an email yourself and I promise he will give you the same reply.

I love the NO voters argument: anything I don't agree with must not be true.

I can't count how many times me and many others were labeled as management plants these past couple of months just because we offered a different perspective.

 

[derg]

You told the ex-soldier to keep my powder dry. You're cute. I like you.

Once again- a different time. Time is one of the key metrics of any battlefield, and like I said, I've grown accustomed to the idea of this career being an endless war for what I've earned.

But you're not in a war and nothing you're encountering right now has anything to do with soldiers, smartassery or heavyset women with "Army Wife" on the back of their minivans.

Everyone is replaceable, including myself and everyone at my 11,000 (12,000? I don't know) person airline. Every plane, every pilot, every route.

If they keep throwing you crap sandwiches, keep sending them back: Absolutely. But throw it because because it's inequitable, unjust, etc… but if the only arrow in your quiver is the notion that you can't be replaced, ask WestAir, Atlantic Coast, Comair, et al -- you can be replaced. I can be replaced. Every pilot at FedEx, UPS, SWA, Delta, United, Jet Blue (two words?) can be replaced.

Keep sending crappy agreements back and keep the pressure on your MEC so they know the pilot group is unified and fully aware of the consequences of each vote.

Please continue fighting the good fight, but Beyonce's "Irreplaceable" is a fools battle cry.

 

[Maurus]

Might want to recheck that. I am hearing United wants to do it the right way, they are just having a problem finding a regional partners willing to work with them. My understanding is if they had a wholly-owned regional it would be up and running. @Seggy anything to add?

That's just the info I got from talking to someone in XJTs ALPA leadership. Made it sound like they were completely uninterested.

Personally I don't want United to do any flow agreements. Keeping everyone on an equal footing makes more sense to me.