Latest Eagle AIP rejected
- Thread starter derg
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Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
On the first point, how so? Even if our leverage is the regional model doesn't work anymore and mainline reclaims the flying...isn't that a win for everybody? What we've been wanting all year?
On second point, I'll admit that I didn't know that. But none the less, the end result was still the same.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Everybody? Ask the "lifers" if that's a win for them. Ask the guys without college degrees. Etc.
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
Unfortunate...but I have more to lose as a guy stuck on the bottom for years and years than those guys bringing in over 100k who could (should) afford to get their degree done. Especially if my bring home pay is pushed even further down.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I'm not telling you that you should vote for concessions. In reality, I probably would have voted against all of the recent concessionary deals if I was there. I'm just telling you that these sweeping statements about things being "better for everybody," "we have a bunch of leverage," and "it's just a bluff" are a bunch of hooey. There are real consequences to these decisions for a lot of people, and that should be taken seriously.
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
As someone with actual skin in the game, I think they are being taken very seriously. The regionals have changed since you and Seggy were here.
While I certainly do feel for the guys at the top of the seniority list without any prospects to move on. By the same token, I'm not going to use my vote to be concerned for those who have been making 100k+ for years and don't have a plan B or haven't put themselves in a position to move on.
I've been struggling for 6+ years and because of increases in health insurance costs and other cost of living items, my pay has been AT BEST stagnant. To someone who can easily replace their paycheck at home depot, this game of chicken is very much worth playing.
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
They threw other pilots under the bus for career progression. Not all regionals have the ability to offer career progression like PSA. United seems to not care about offering such a benefit to their regionals and would likely want to see a similar contract to PSA without the career stuff.
It really is hard to put a dollar amount on career progression since a 500 pilot airline will get better benefits from the flow than a large 5000 pilot airline. Mainline only needs so many pilots at a given time. There is no way XJT, Eagle or RAH can get a hiring agreement that will allow the movement PSA pilots will have. Not to mention there is no way they can see the same growth either.
The worst part is that the massive career movement PSA pilots will see comes at minimal cost to management. There is no way XJT, Eagle, or RAH can even match that at this point.
Oh please.
I live in 'this house' and I'm more interested in finding more folks like @Richman, @Cptnchia, @PeanuckleCRJ and others that share the same Esprit de Corps that made it a career carrier.
Reluctance at throwing the doors wide open like post World War II France with SSP's, flow-thru's, bridge agreements, et al isn't arrogance or being a "jerk".
If you honestly see it that way, that's fine, but you're grievously mistaken.
unclenobby
Well-Known Member
Flows are designed to keep you at your regional longer, not get you to a major faster. If they run into staffing problems at a regional with flow agreement you think the flow will continue at the same pace?
You get it. Man, I want to do the Snoopy "happy dance"!
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
And this attitude is why ALPA is such a weak trade union. Members who don't view each other as equals.
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
I don't work for an airline, and it is good for me. I mean, the AIP, when you adjust for inflation, would effectively have dropped starting pay 10 years out from now to about 20% lower than it is now, and it is already low enough that I would not consider working for Eagle now anyway.
I don't think that it was a bluff, but I doubt that AAG was planning anything other than shutting the doors at Eagle at their earliest convenience anyway. I mean, 20% at the bottom of the payscale 10 years from now isn't enough savings to make a difference either way in their plans. The only reasonable conclusion to draw is that liquidating Eagle was the plan all along.
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
Per the contract there is a defined pace of flows/interviews that must be kept. The growth of aircraft also puts the FOs currently there in a good position for career advancement with quick upgrades. Current captains will have QOL boosts due to more captains under them and an increase of lines available due too growth.
This is stuff that can not be given to the larger regionals with the same results.
10 years ago flows would have and were exactly as you described them. Now Compass is seeing a lot of movement because if how small their pilots group is. Mesaba guys will be waiting a long long time because of how large their airline was. Flow for PSA is big for a small pilot group.
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Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
The caps at 12 year Captain are the worst concession. What happens to the guys who don't move on? They make captain, and there they sit- BLAM. 12 year pay for 20 years.
Not to mention, we have a profit sharing section in our bankruptcy CBA that they wanted gone, and they wanted to cut our per diem, too.
The overlords are trying to set a new low baseline for pay while posting record profits. Whut?
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
I think its problem is weak central leadership. When you let each MEC basically fend for itself on contract negotiations it leads to back stabbing, especially at the regional level. If you had strong national leadership that got involved, or at least set a minimum standard, there would be no whipsawing...at least amongst ALPA carriers.
Well, it started far, far upstream and well above my pay grade and you know this.
We need less "Joseph Stalin" tactics from ALPA national where they're 'fighting the good fight', but wouldn't hesitate to put a bullet in the back of your head in a second if you don't march 100% to tempo.
You know what I'm getting at. I know @Seggy knows.
Overall, ALPA was more "United Nations" than it was "Starfleet Academy".
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Here's food for thought- if the company really doesn't care what we do and will just shut us down, why would they care how we approach this?
I got it straight from my captain rep's mouth that the company is MAD that the union wasn't out actively selling this TA.
Why would the company care, really, if it didn't really matter and they had the cards?
I got it straight from my captain rep's mouth that the company is MAD that the union wasn't out actively selling this TA.
Why would the company care, really, if it didn't really matter and they had the cards?
unclenobby
Well-Known Member
Only time will tell, I guess in a few yrs we can do a side by side comparison. I can't remember any regional with flows in the past who have been in a better position than those without, but who knows. I do know plenty of guys getting hired from all regionals to all majors, LCC etc. While at an airline with flow you are less likely to play the field cause you have more skin in the game. Management would never use that to their advantage, or go back on their word of course!
How long do you project a yr 1 FO to make it to said major?
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Pinnacle was able to squeeze something of a 'preferential interview' during a time they virtually had no leverage.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I agree that that is also a problem. But that ultimately comes back to the same root cause: pilots can't keep their Type A personalities in check. They can't accept the idea of there being a centralized power that can tell them what to do in negotiations, so they insist upon local control.