Late pax and weather

[dasleben]

Much like the thread about the delayed flight PA, this situation is more customer service oriented.

You arrive at Podunk airport at 1150, with a 35 minute turn and scheduled departure back to Generic Hub at 1225. Upon reaching the Podunk airport, you check the radar for the return flight and find that a number of thunderstorms have popped up directly adjacent to your route of flight, and are moving and building toward your route. You decide that it's best that the flight be turned and departed as quickly as possible.

However, there's one passenger who hasn't checked in yet. He has a tight connection at Generic Hub, and would most certainly miss the connection if he's not on your flight. Company policy requires that passengers check in at least 30 minutes prior to departure time, but you know that this is often overlooked at Podunk airport (and the passengers know this). You load up the airplane at 1205 without that passenger, citing company policy.

As you block out and begin your taxi at 1210, station ops calls you on the company frequency and says "The last passenger just showed up...what do you want to do?" TSA has closed down the checkpoint, and it's 90F out without air conditioning. You know that if you turn around, it's going to be approximately 5 minutes before the last passenger is onboard. The last radar update you saw is now 15 minutes old.

Keep taxiing or gate return?

 

[subpilot]

If I already blocked out and taxiing then I am not turning back. The reason to block out early was to beat the weather and so turning back would defeat that. The passenger was late to check-in so he/she has nobody to blame but themself.

 

[mshunter]

If I already blocked out and taxiing then I am not turning back. The reason to block out early was to beat the weather and so turning back would defeat that. The passenger was late to check-in so he/she has nobody to blame but themself.

:yeahthat:. Piss of one pax, or all pax? I say the guy thats late, just missed his bus (or airplane rather). Show up on time, or don't show at all. As a CFI, if you showed up early, I would usually only charge for the time we spent together. If you showed up late, then lesson still ended on time, but you got charged for what you had booked my schedule for. Moral is, it pays to be on time.

 

[pilotmg1501]

Easy answer....."if you want immediate assistance return to the ticket counter, otherwise, stand over there, let me finish my paperwork and I will help rebook you"

There is nothing more that needs to be said, once the decision is made to close the door, regardless of whether or not it is actually closed, the decision is made and it will not re-open"


"Attention in the airport, this is the final and immediate boarding call for Delta Connection Flight 1234 with service to Cincinnati, all ticketed and confirmed passengers should be on-board at this time. The doors will be closing in less than 2 minutes and WILL NOT re-open. Anybody who is not on-board is subject to having their reservation canceled."

Any agent that is worth their salt will not even consider letting a pax get on after the door has been closed.

At my company, reservations are subject to cancellation 15 minutes prior to departure. I will not close the doors before 10 minutes prior if there are checked in passengers that are not on, but technically we can close it earlier than that. Like I said before, though, once the doors are closed, they WILL NOT be opening again.

 

[Nick]

Flexibility and Common Sense

Joe Businessman wakes up in Omaha the day of his big trip to Zurich to close a multi-million dollar deal. He's bringing two co-workers with him on this trip.

Joe flies more than 100,000 miles a year on this airline. He likes having a good frequent flyer status on one carrier and they offer flights to everywhere he needs to go.

They arrive at OMA just before noon for a flight to New York, where they'll connect to ZRH.

The plane is an hour late to arrive at OMA because the crew flew a 16 hour duty period the day before which ate into their original layover time. The layover was turned into reduced rest, and the departure from another hub was pushed back by 90 minutes. They've made up some time but are still late.

Joe boards the plane to New York an hour behind schedule and as the door is closed the pilot announces that they have a wheels up time of two hours from now, something that had been 35 minutes from departure time, but has just been adjusted by ATC.

The pilot says that the door will be opened back up again so that people can get off and relax in the terminal if they don't want to sit in the airplane for so long before the 3 hour flight.

Joe and his co-workers walk up to the gate agent and ask if there are any other options to get to ZRH tonight -- they are now in jeopardy of missing the flight out of New York even though they scheduled a four hour stopover.

The agent views their booking and sees the elite status and full-fare with the most flexibility and routes them through Chicago for a small extra fee. They are willing to pay this as the trip is very important and they've already paid a total of $14,000 between the three of them anyway.

The flight to Chicago leaves in 30 minutes, and they'll have 90 minutes to make the new flight to ZRH once they get there.

They get on that flight, it takes off and approaching Chicago an hour later, a plane ahead of them blows a tire on landing and is stuck on the runway. Their plane flies a missed approach and enters a holding pattern, since construction already had things in a bottleneck and now the airport is down to one single runway for takeoffs and landings until the plane can be towed off the runway.

They land after some turns in the hold, and pull up to the gate with 20 minutes until their ZRH flight leaves.

Just short of the gate now, the pilot comes on the P.A. and tells everyone that there is ground equipment blocking their way and no ramp crew is present, and that it shouldn't be much longer.

Ten minutes pass and they finally park.

Joe and co. run to the gate for ZRH -- it's now 5 minutes prior to departure.

They get to the gate right at departure time, maybe a minute later, and you, the gate agent, are just coming up from closing the aircraft door. The airplane is now sitting there at the gate with no towbar connected, no tug parked nearby, and there are a couple suitcases lined up for a belt loader at the aft cargo door.

Joe and his co-workers plead with you, the gate agent, to let them on since the plane is obviously not going anywhere in the next five minutes and big bucks have been spent on this trip that was planned out conservatively but due to a bad day in the skies, has created quite a stressful first flight.

You tell Joe and his co-workers:

"if you want immediate assistance return to the ticket counter, otherwise, stand over there, let me finish my paperwork and I will help rebook you."

Their jaws drop.

The plane is still without any of the things it needs to pushback and the captain can be seen sitting sideways in his seat talking to the other pilots and his side window is open.

Joe pleads with you to be reasonable but you insist that they cannot board the flight, because:

Any agent that is worth their salt will not even consider letting a pax get on after the door has been closed.

...Like I said before, though, once the doors are closed, they WILL NOT be opening again.

I am your boss.

I fire you because Joe ended up writing the CEO of the airline a nasty letter about how he and his company that has more than two hundred employees that frequently fly on your carrier will never buy one more ticket on the airline no matter what the inconvenience or cost difference. They've learned their lesson and the competition seems to be more flexible. Turns out, they enjoy their business class seats more anyway, now that they've sampled them.

 

[pilotmg1501]

You would not fire me because I was doing my job to a T...my experience is at a decently busy outstation, not at a hub with much experience with connecting passengers, but unless it was previously discussed that we were going to wait, or we found out there was going to be a ground stop and the aircraft was going to be at the gate for longer. If it's reasonable, and the actual door is still open, I'll call down to the ramp to see if I can get somebody on, but 9 times out of 10, the answer is no.

Pilots who have never seen the other side of an aircraft door don't know what it takes to run a station and get planes out on time, deal with customers, run a smooth gate, tell somebody they're too late to check in. As an agent you need to be firm and confident, otherwise people are going to walk all over you. People misconnect all the time, unfortunately it's a part of travel. How do you expect to run an on-time operation if you're bending, stopping, and waiting for every passenger. The airline comes up with policies for a reason, and it wants its agents to follow them.

In fact, the airline would be faster to fire me because I re-opened the door than it would for sticking to my guns, my decision, and the airline's policies....Trust me, I made that mistake ONCE, and I will never do it again.

 

[Nick]

My point was total inflexibility because you said you would never open the door back up and that is quite a bold statement!

 

[pilotmg1501]

My point was that as a gate agent you have to be very firm otherwise you will be walked over.......I learned this as I was being simultaneously being yelled at by 4 women (1 of whom was pregnant) with my lead laughing at me behind my back....

I guess you and I both went to the extreme to prove our point...

No hard feelings?

 

[drummerboy]

Where I work we cannot leave early if we are missing people. I can see in a special situation like this the person may be cut off and we leave because of the weather. I think the biggest thing to remember is that these are the people who pay our pay cheques. We spend so much time following policies and complaining about them. In the end they are the reason you have a job. If I can help someone out without causing problems for my other passengers I will do it.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

The airlines generally (from what I have seen...) run late pax operations like this:

Domestic connections - will not be held for late incoming passengers, especially if there are later flights.

International connections - usually they do their best to hold aircraft for late connecting passengers. They have screens that tell them how many pax are connecting from what cities and when they'll be landing.

 

[dasleben]

Great discussion so far, thanks.

Where I work we cannot leave early if we are missing people. I can see in a special situation like this the person may be cut off and we leave because of the weather. I think the biggest thing to remember is that these are the people who pay our pay cheques. We spend so much time following policies and complaining about them. In the end they are the reason you have a job. If I can help someone out without causing problems for my other passengers I will do it.

What about in the above example? The other passengers (who also contribute to my paycheck) have connections as well. Would you have gate returned if it may have meant that we wouldn't have beat the weather?

 

[Nick]

My point was that as a gate agent you have to be very firm otherwise you will be walked over.......I learned this as I was being simultaneously being yelled at by 4 women (1 of whom was pregnant) with my lead laughing at me behind my back....

My whole post was to demonstrate how 'being firm' can also be 'being dumb'. Not necessarily dumb on your part, but on the company's part. They are potentially treating a valuable customer like crap and if that happens enough times the customer will find better service elsewhere.

I guess you and I both went to the extreme to prove our point...

I did not go to any extreme to make my point.

I wrote a very common scenario that I guarantee is happening a dozen times today to people around the country.

Just two days ago at the gate, we were departing for an airport that had an EDCT program going on and we had a wheels up time of about 25 minutes past our departure time.

The gate agent was at the cockpit door a couple minutes prior to departure and told the captain that the airline did not want to place a hold on the flight (usually 10 minutes at this company) but there were three people in the airport running towards the gate. We were due out in one minute and the gate agent left the decision to delay the flight up to the PIC saying the delay code would have to go on the crew if the passengers were to board.

He looked at me, I looked at him, and we both looked up at the gate agent like, why would we not wait for them? Their flight has already blocked in and we cannot takeoff for another 25 minutes.

We waited and they got on and we still ended up having to wait a couple minutes for our takeoff time. Delay on the crew? Fine! No punishment, no penalty, no phone call. ACARS message was sent while waiting for takeoff and that was the end of it.

We don't even get an on-time performance bonus at all so I've actually flown with many pilots who intentionally block out late as much as possible in hopes that management will be cycled out faster because of bad performance numbers...but that is another topic.

 

[dasleben]

My whole post was to demonstrate how 'being firm' can also be 'being dumb'. Not necessarily dumb on your part, but on the company's part. They are potentially treating a valuable customer like crap and if that happens enough times the customer will find better service elsewhere.



I did not go to any extreme to make my point.

I wrote a very common scenario that I guarantee is happening a dozen times today to people around the country.

Just two days ago at the gate, we were departing for an airport that had an EDCT program going on and we had a wheels up time of about 25 minutes past our departure time.

The gate agent was at the cockpit door a couple minutes prior to departure and told the captain that the airline did not want to place a hold on the flight (usually 10 minutes at this company) but there were three people in the airport running towards the gate. We were due out in one minute and the gate agent left the decision to delay the flight up to the PIC saying the delay code would have to go on the crew if the passengers were to board.

He looked at me, I looked at him, and we both looked up at the gate agent like, why would we not wait for them? Their flight has already blocked in and we cannot takeoff for another 25 minutes.

We waited and they got on and we still ended up having to wait a couple minutes for our takeoff time. Delay on the crew? Fine! No punishment, no penalty, no phone call. ACARS message was sent while waiting for takeoff and that was the end of it.

We don't even get an on-time performance bonus at all so I've actually flown with many pilots who intentionally block out late as much as possible in hopes that management will be cycled out faster because of bad performance numbers...but that is another topic.

Alright, well, do you feel that in my scenario, I would have been too rigid if I had continued taxiing? What if I'd have turned around?

 

[Nick]

Alright, well, do you feel that in my scenario, I would have been too rigid if I had continued taxiing? What if I'd have turned around?

Haha, sorry, I forgot about your actual post since I had mostly replied to pilotmg's response.

If I were in your situation, engines running and taxiing towards the runway, I would not have done a gate return just for one passenger.

One exception: 30+ minute wheels up time delay going back to the hub. Then there'd be time to do a gate return.

 

[pilotmg1501]

My whole post was to demonstrate how 'being firm' can also be 'being dumb'. Not necessarily dumb on your part, but on the company's part. They are potentially treating a valuable customer like crap and if that happens enough times the customer will find better service elsewhere.



I did not go to any extreme to make my point.

I wrote a very common scenario that I guarantee is happening a dozen times today to people around the country.

Just two days ago at the gate, we were departing for an airport that had an EDCT program going on and we had a wheels up time of about 25 minutes past our departure time.

The gate agent was at the cockpit door a couple minutes prior to departure and told the captain that the airline did not want to place a hold on the flight (usually 10 minutes at this company) but there were three people in the airport running towards the gate. We were due out in one minute and the gate agent left the decision to delay the flight up to the PIC saying the delay code would have to go on the crew if the passengers were to board.

He looked at me, I looked at him, and we both looked up at the gate agent like, why would we not wait for them? Their flight has already blocked in and we cannot takeoff for another 25 minutes.

We waited and they got on and we still ended up having to wait a couple minutes for our takeoff time. Delay on the crew? Fine! No punishment, no penalty, no phone call. ACARS message was sent while waiting for takeoff and that was the end of it.

We don't even get an on-time performance bonus at all so I've actually flown with many pilots who intentionally block out late as much as possible in hopes that management will be cycled out faster because of bad performance numbers...but that is another topic.

How am I treating a valuable customer like crap when I am following my airline's policies??...There are reasons those policies are in place...

Something happening a dozen times in a day is a VERY small percentage of people...and something that I'm sure the airline is ok with dealing with...

As far as your scenario goes...I don't know why that agent was concerned with pinning the delay on you...especially if you are already late, or aren't going to be leaving the gate for a while due to an EDCT time....the whole delay should be going on late ops due to weather/ATC.....sounds to me like they wanted to get you off of the gate so they could go get some dinner and didn't want to deal with it anymore....bad move on their part...

As far as crews purposefully blocking out late, I have no problem coding it on them every time.....late completion of checklist....but as you said...that probably is another topic...

 

[Baronpilot244]

The passenger missed his flight, tough luck! If I'm supposed to get going at a certain time then that's what I'm doing.

The next part of the story of course is that we get caught in the weather, encounter severe turbulence, lose a wing and crash; the passenger left at the terminal has the "I could have been on that flight" story to tell his grandkids and the press.

Bp244

 

[grnclvrs]

It would suck if your GOM required a new release for returning to the gate. As far as the guy going to AMS, what if you opened the door after departure time for him and his overstuffed carry on bag busted the overhead bin door as he was trying to He-man the thing in there and while you wait for maintenance you lose your wheels up time? The new wheels up time is 2 hours away but by the time that rolls around the snow and freezing rain that was in the TAF has started. The airport is out of Type 4 fluid and they only have 1 plough operating.

We can play "what if" all day but in the end, departure time is departure time. A gate agent will always try to guilt a captain into waiting for that last pax and then hammer them with the delay. It's the way of the airlines. Just tell teh agent that while the airplane is at the gate it's their responsibility so they have to make the call about the pax.

 

[Baronman]

If I'm trying to get out before wx impedes my route, I'll leave people behind without missing a beat (if they're late).

 

[JOEFRIDAY2]

Well a couple of thoughts.

1. Once the plane has left the gate--it has left the gate and not coming back.

2. If a passenger is tight on a connection, then someone should call the departing gate and let them know so a proper decision can be made. This way the door doesn't get closed if the passenger(s) can be accomodated.

Folks, passengers do pay our salaries. They are our customers. I know some of them are a royal pain in the neck at times. But we are in the service business and it is incumbent upon all of us working for the airlines to do what we can to help them within reason.

Lately I've been seeing those traveling in military uniform being upgraded to first class when there are empty seats available. Frankly I like that and it really doesn't cost the company hardly anything to make that happen.

I see captains taking children into the cockpit again. I like that as well.

I was in St Louis the other day trying to non rev back on an oversold flight. (last flight out) A military guy was trying to fly standby to get to his mothers funeral. There were no empty seats. The military guy started shouting at the gate agent. She was not amused and walked away. I really felt sorry for the guy and I started talking to him and trying to explain that I understand he is upset but I'll be happy to try to find him an empty seat on a flight and he will get better results if he stopped shouting.

Just then the door opened and a passenger was coming off the plane with a medical condition. That opened up an empty seat. That military guy got the empty seat.

Some things don't cost anything, but can make a lifetime impression.

Joe

 

[cmill]

My point was that as a gate agent you have to be very firm otherwise you will be walked over.......I learned this as I was being simultaneously being yelled at by 4 women (1 of whom was pregnant) with my lead laughing at me behind my back....

I guess you and I both went to the extreme to prove our point...

No hard feelings?

So, the captain has no say in this? All it would take is a call to the captain to see what he says. If you wouldnt even do that for a pax paying 15k for a flight, then i wouldnt fly with the airline you work for either.