Want to Buy Late Model Citabria 7GCBC Metal Spars, NDH, low time

flyboywbl

flyboywbl

3rd regional in 1 year
Hey guys,

I'm looking to purchase a late model (preferably 1990 or later) Citabria 7GCBC to get some tail wheel time and do some fun back country stuff in the mountains.

It needs to have metal spars, and no damage history,

i would like it to have a metal bottom, rear seat push to talk, rear seat heat, and NOT decked out for IFR. The simpler (and cheaper) the better.

i would love the engine and airframe to have less than 1000TT.

I'm looking to spend in the $50,000-$75,000 range.

I had a deal fall through last week so i'm ready to move fast on the next one! Down payment cash is in in escrow, loan is ready to go.

Any one have any leads?

Thanks!

-Matt
 
Send me a PM with your phone number. I know two Citabria's on the field here for sale. I"ll look around for some info this week.
 
Don't know of any for sale, but just curious why you need to have metal spars?

You say you want simple and cheap, but that one option alone (plus the date range) really starts to limit your options.
 
ctab5060X said:
Don't know of any for sale, but just curious why you need to have metal spars?

You say you want simple and cheap, but that one option alone (plus the date range) really starts to limit your options.
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I'm going to be leasing this back to a flight school for tail wheel training while i build time as well. I'll need 100 hours TT before the insurance will let me teach in it. My boss (and I) both want it to have metal spars. Also from what i have found, the wood spar AD can be quite pricey.

The one that fell through last week was a year 2000 with 300TT, always hangared, NDH, for $74,000.

We lost another one that was a 1997 with 500TT going for $59,500. That would of been a steal of a deal. I saw the ad two days after it was posted. We called the owner and he said it had sold with in 4 hours of posting.

They are out there in this price range. But they go quick.

My other option is to spend in the $80,000-$90,000 range for one with full IFR and a G430W. i would probably take out the WAAS 430 and sell it. Then i would put in t 496 or something. Not sure what a used 430W goes for but i bet i could get $4,000-$6,000 for it.

-Matt
 
flyboywbl said:
I'm going to be leasing this back to a flight school for tail wheel training while i build time as well. I'll need 100 hours TT before the insurance will let me teach in it. My boss (and I) both want it to have metal spars. Also from what i have found, the wood spar AD can be quite pricey.
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FYI... any GCBC you get that is manufactured by American Champion (post 1990) will have metal spars and more than likely will have a metal belly. If memory serves, the GCBC is the only Citabria offered from ACA that comes with a metal belly (not as an option).

As far as spars go, you still really haven't addressed my question of why you need metal spars. You say you and your boss want them, but why? (curious to your reasoning) :)

If you have found the wood spar AD (inspection) to be pricey, you are looking in the wrong location. All the AD required is for the spar to be inspected at regular intervals (annual or 500 TIS). This AD has been out almost 10 years now and there are plenty of qualified mechanics who are familiar with the procedure that it should not be "quite pricey" There is also a fair amount of literature on the issue, including a service bulletin concerning how to inspect the wing spars (and alternative methods) that predates the AD by almost 3 years (coincides with the Scout wing spar AD).
 
ctab5060X said:
FYI... any GCBC you get that is manufactured by American Champion (post 1990) will have metal spars and more than likely will have a metal belly. If memory serves, the GCBC is the only Citabria offered from ACA that comes with a metal belly (not as an option).

As far as spars go, you still really haven't addressed my question of why you need metal spars. You say you and your boss want them, but why? (curious to your reasoning) :)

If you have found the wood spar AD (inspection) to be pricey, you are looking in the wrong location. All the AD required is for the spar to be inspected at regular intervals (annual or 500 TIS). This AD has been out almost 10 years now and there are plenty of qualified mechanics who are familiar with the procedure that it should not be "quite pricey" There is also a fair amount of literature on the issue, including a service bulletin concerning how to inspect the wing spars (and alternative methods) that predates the AD by almost 3 years (coincides with the Scout wing spar AD).
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You would have to talk to my boss for his reasoning. He has been buying and selling planes professionally for over 6 years and has been a flight instructor for a lot longer than that. He personally has owned a C150, a Decathlon, and a PA-18. In his experience newer low time models have fewer problems. I trust him on that one.

As a student i know i would rather rent a newer airplane. Even if it costs more. When i first started out i had the option of doing my private in a C150 (80 an hour) a DA-20 (109 an hour) or a DA-40 (159 an hour) I chose the DA-40 because of the newer G1000 technology and I have not regretted it since. We ended up having to sell our C150 because no one would rent it when we had 4 bran spanking new DA-20s to rent even if it saved $29 an hour.

I want a newer aircraft with metal spars because metal is stronger than wood. For me it's a safety issue. From what my boss told me, the AD requires cutting the fabric and inspecting the spars. I Just don't want to deal with that.

I realize a newer (post 1990) will have metal spars but if it's a nice older one with the metal spar upgrade then i would look at it. Unfortunately if the wings were replaced, it usually means that there was an accident of some sort.

I want something that can be put on our flight line asap. In my mind a newer one will have a decent xponder, radio, gps, already installed.

The last reason is that the older models have a 150HP engine. The newer ones have 160 HP engines. I want the extra HP for up here in the mountains.

In theory it does not really matter how much the plane costs because on paper it will make money. However I know that this is not realistic. If it breaks even over the two years and I get a couple hundred hours out of the deal, i'll be happy. Heck even if I lose $15,000 on the deal, that would be about the same price as going out to get 100 hours of tail wheel time with an instructor in a rental plane. The price range i picked works for me in that, if i could not lease the aircraft, i could take it off the full commercial insurance and still be able to afford the loan payment.

-Matt
 
Ian J said:
Off topic, but did you ever get that rotorcraft add-on?
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Nah, i really wanted to but i decided this would be a better way to spend that money. Also the place i was going to go with sold their S300 and bought an R44. Needless to say the price tag on flight training went way up. They originally quoted $27,000 to get me all the way through CFI heli. I did not ask how much it would be in the R44 but i bet it would be at least half again as much.

Had my boss wanted to get a heli I would of done it. He does not want to deal with Heli's so the add on would of been fun and expensive but pretty useless from a career training stand point.

I do want to learn (and someday teach) aerobatics as well as back country and mountain flying so the 7GCBC seems like a better bet. I've heard they are the easiest tail wheels to learn on. We looked at PA-18's but the insurance was a lot higher and they price tag is also pretty high on those.

I'll be done with my bachelor's next spring. I'm planning on flight training full time for a year after that while I look for a real pilot job. I'm going to try and get an internship with a local charter op here in Bozeman this summer. They fly a C210 as well as a PC-12. If that does not work i might ask my boss about doing an internship buying and selling aircraft.

Either way i think it would be a shame not get get a tail wheel up in the mountains. There are a lot of cool spots up here that we don't allow our DA-20s to go.

-Matt
 
flyboywbl said:
You would have to talk to my boss for his reasoning. He has been buying and selling planes professionally for over 6 years and has been a flight instructor for a lot longer than that. He personally has owned a C150, a Decathlon, and a PA-18. In his experience newer low time models have fewer problems. I trust him on that one.
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And not all low time models are great airplanes. I personally know that workmanship from Champion and Bellanca is of much higher quality than the workmanship of American Champion. I also know someone who had more problems out his new Decathlon than we every had out of our '68 7ECA. It is all in how the airplane is maintained and the TLC it gets during its life. Just playing devil's advocate here.

flyboywbl said:
As a student i know i would rather rent a newer airplane. Even if it costs more. When i first started out i had the option of doing my private in a C150 (80 an hour) a DA-20 (109 an hour) or a DA-40 (159 an hour) I chose the DA-40 because of the newer G1000 technology and I have not regretted it since. We ended up having to sell our C150 because no one would rent it when we had 4 bran spanking new DA-20s to rent even if it saved $29 an hour.
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And all of those are nosewheel airplanes. You gave people an option. With one tailwheel airplane, you might get more business from it by having and older model that can go for cheaper per hour than a newer model. Lower the cost of tailwheel training and make it available for more people rather that making it cost prohibitive.

flyboywbl said:
I want a newer aircraft with metal spars because metal is stronger than wood. For me it's a safety issue. From what my boss told me, the AD requires cutting the fabric and inspecting the spars. I Just don't want to deal with that.
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Metal is not necessarily stronger than wood. This is one of the biggest misconceptions about the Citabria line of aircraft. Metal is more rigid and doesn't tend to flex as much in flight and during higher G manouvers, thus leading to more predictable aerodynamics, but that does not imply that it is stronger.

You need to research the spar AD. Wood spar aircraft already have inspection holes cut and covered from the factory. A LOT of time and energy by mechanics HIGHLY experienced with the type went into developing the techniques that can be used to inspect the entire spar (and comply with the AD) through original factory cut inspection holes. There was a time when we thought there were going to be additional holes that had to be cut, but through the efforts of many, mechanics, pilots, and owners were able to show the FAA that inspection was possible without the new holes.

flyboywbl said:
I realize a newer (post 1990) will have metal spars but if it's a nice older one with the metal spar upgrade then i would look at it. Unfortunately if the wings were replaced, it usually means that there was an accident of some sort.
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Not necessarily.



flyboywbl said:
The last reason is that the older models have a 150HP engine. The newer ones have 160 HP engines. I want the extra HP for up here in the mountains.
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If you want horsepower for up in the mountains, I would highly recommend looking at a Scout.
 
Sounds good. Thanks for the input.

We looked at scouts. They are more expensive, burn more gas, and you can't do aerobatics with them. They can tow gliders, which is a plus.

I would still rather have a newer model 7GCBC. That's what I'm more comfortable with.


-Matt
 
flyboywbl said:
Sounds good. Thanks for the input.
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Not a problem. I grew up in a 7ECA and was in the process of doing a rebuild and recover when the spar AD was in the process of being finalized. Talk about being on pins and needles! :eek:

flyboywbl said:
We looked at scouts. They are more expensive, burn more gas, and you can't do aerobatics with them. They can tow gliders, which is a plus.
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Would you believe the reason for the spar AD on the Scout is from people doing aerobatics in them? :insane: Spars would suffer small compression cracks and when the airplane was used late for something like towing a glider... BAM! spar failure!:(

flyboywbl said:
I would still rather have a newer model 7GCBC. That's what I'm more comfortable with.
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That is a biggie. It is all what you are comfortable with. Just want to make sure you do your research on the type. If you haven't already, make sure you check out the type club for the Citabria.
 
Kinda sounds like the boss is thinking resale down the road, metal spars sell faster than wood spars when you have pilots with zero time on said wood spar... And hunting for a taildragger with NDH is for the add posting in a year.

Dammage history really doesn't say much of anything so long as it is repaired correctly.

Say somebody ground looped a new one while getting signed off, and tore some fabric, if repaired appropriatly, the only reason you would ever know is because of the log.

On that hand, looking for minor dammage history with well documented repairs can lower your aquisition costs...
 
Interested to see how this works out. I've been interested as well in buying a TW aircraft when I get stateside again and working out a deal with a local flight school or opening one on the side as well. Would love to do it in MT as well, maybe the Whitefish area.

=Jason-

Have a little over 300 hrs aerobatic dual given in a 7ECA, best flying in my life. Only complaint on the aircraft is it was underpowered and just the 2 seats wouldn't make it practical for me. I'm looking at going the PA-20 route, seems like a better overall aircraft for me.
 
NDH can be one of the biggest mistakes and most misunderstood things in aviation.

I would "like" my next airplane to have NDH but it's not a hard requirement. I'm looking to buy another airplane in the fall so if you find a wood-spar with some DH let me know, I'll probably scoop it up. :D
 
flyboywbl said:
Nah, i really wanted to but i decided this would be a better way to spend that money. Also the place i was going to go with sold their S300 and bought an R44. Needless to say the price tag on flight training went way up. They originally quoted $27,000 to get me all the way through CFI heli. I did not ask how much it would be in the R44 but i bet it would be at least half again as much.
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A bit off-topic, but there's an SFAR that requires 200 hours in helicopters plus 50 in the Robinsons to instruct in the R22 or R44. I thought about going for my helicopter CFI as well, but not being able to instruct in Robinsons without pouring out the cash for make and model time makes it less appealing.
 
Well i got one finally! 2003 with 375 hours. 860 tires and vortex generators. So much fun to fly. I just finished my 25 hours to fly solo. Weather has been bad so i have not flown it by my self yet. Now i just need 100 hours to teach in it. Just got the parachutes packed...It's gonna be a fun summer!

-Matt
 

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