"Largest RJ order in history" conflicts...

Cherokee_Cruiser

Well-Known Member
\"Largest RJ order in history\" conflicts...

Seems that every company thinks that they have placed the largest regional jet order with Bombardier:

Comair claimed to have placed the largest RJ order in the mid 90s.

AirWis steps up in 2001 and claims to have placed the largest RJ order in the history of Bombardier:

In 2001, AWAC ordered 51 firm, 24 conditional and options for an additional 75 CL-65 aircraft from Bombardier. This was the largest order for regional jets in the history of Bombardier.

from: http://www.airwis.com/corporate.htm

Even though Comair had a greater number of firm, and rolling options for the CRJ (a little more than what AirWis ordered).

And finally, USAirways steps up and says they have announced the largest RJ order in history, only to decrease that order due to mainline pilot disputes...

 

Jason

Well-Known Member
Re: \"Largest RJ order in history\" conflicts...

Guess it depends on how you define 'order' AWAC 51 firm+24 conditional + 75 options = 150 'orders' = more than Comair's 100 'orders'.

I guess I don't understand where the so called 'conflict' is. At the time that each of those orders were made they probably were the largest in history.

Jason
 

Cherokee_Cruiser

Well-Known Member
Re: \"Largest RJ order in history\" conflicts...

Well, if you total comair's firm orders + conditional + options with Bombarider, it's still more than AirWis.
 

Jason

Well-Known Member
Re: \"Largest RJ order in history\" conflicts...

Ahh ok - I didn't have access to that information as it was not posted in the original post. Were all of Comair's orders posted at the some time?? Yeah they may have bought more in the long run but I don't know that they've ever placed a huge order at one time.

Jason
 

Mr_Creepy

Well-Known Member
Re: \"Largest RJ order in history\" conflicts...

The USAirways order of 35 are now going to Mesa, in addition to the 35 they just ordered for United. 70 must be some sort of record? Well maybe not.
 

ready2fly

Well-Known Member
Re: \"Largest RJ order in history\" conflicts...

Unless I misread the article in the July 7th Business section of the Tampa Tribune entitled: "Smaller Jets, Bigger Business: Regional Jets, or RJ's, are taking their place alongside larger aircraft"...Air Wisconsin ordered a ton of the RJ's for their AirTran routes but it is described as "The AirTan RJ deal is one of hte industry's smaller ones.......

But, as John mentioned, the article says "US Airways in May agreed to buy 170 RJ's with options for 380 more in deals spleit between today's two primary RJ manufacturers: Bombadier Aerospace of Canada and Embraer of Brazil."

The article also mentioned this little tidbit:

"RJ's cost less to buy and operate than full-size jets, in part because the airlines can pay pilots less than what they would get to fly larger airliners."

True or not - I'd be glad to be one of those pilots down the road... thankyouverymuch!!
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
Re: \"Largest RJ order in history\" conflicts...

The problem is RJs aren't the solution. They are a fad. And in a few years they'll be an expensive fad for the airlines to bear.

Once demand - and in turn - capacity starts coming around again it'll be cheaper to run one large jet instead of three RJs.

You have less crew, fewer parts/mechanics, less gate space, fewer landing fees etc ... when you are running one large aircraft as opposed to three little guys.

This is not to say that RJs don't have their place, I just don't buy into the "the-RJs-will-save-the-children-bring-world-peace-and-get-a-Dem-elected-to-the-presidency-for-the-next-100-years" attitude thats popular as of late. (Not slaming you R2F)

I just hope in 10 years or so all these RJs don't end up srtangling these mainline airlines who are buying them left and right hoping to replace there 747/57/67/77s with 'em.
 

aloft

New Member
Re: \"Largest RJ order in history\" conflicts...

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is RJs aren't the solution. They are a fad. And in a few years they'll be an expensive fad for the airlines to bear.

Once demand - and in turn - capacity starts coming around again it'll be cheaper to run one large jet instead of three RJs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Southwest has proven this not to be the case. As urban sprawl gobbles up the countryside, the hub/spoke model is failing. People want to bypass the large, congested hubs--they want direct, point-to-point flights. Small jets fill this need admirably and affordably, on routes the carriers might not service otherwise.

In the '70s, people said skateboards were just a passing fad. RJs are here to stay, get used to em.
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
Re: \"Largest RJ order in history\" conflicts...

[ QUOTE ]
In the '70s, people said skateboards were just a passing fad. RJs are here to stay, get used to em.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aloft, please read the entirety of my post(s). I completely agree RJs have a place - just not replacing mainline jets on high capacity routes as is the assumption/rumor/predictions as of late.

In asia they run 747 on domestic routes. Why? Demand/capacity. There is no physical - or economic - way that RJs could replace those 747s on those routes.

For the type of flying you've highlighted, however - I fully agree RJs are the jets for the job.

Every jet has a place - 747s are not very likely to replace an RJ on a St. Louis - Chicago run just lik the RJ is not very likely to replace the 757 on the JFK to LAX run.
 

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
Re: \"Largest RJ order in history\" conflicts...

Actually, I really hate to get into the RJ debate, but I think exactly two airlines actually figured out what the country wants.

SWA and JBLU -- and that's a hard pill to swallow for a Delta pilot.

It's not a matter of bypassing congested hubs, or flying from small countryside airports. SWA provides an economical ticket with reliable service and friendly customer support. JBLU provides in flight entertainment, a simple fee structure and supposedly a fun, clean environment on planes with "new jet" smell.

And I'm only speaking from my experiences talking to business travelers while deadheading or commuting to work -- most I've spoken to prefer a CL-65 over a Brasilia any day, but when it comes to choosing between an A-319 and a CL-65, frequent travelers tend to get pissy about leaving their carryons planeside, boarding in the rain/snow and purchasing a ticket for ABC air and ending up on 123 Express.

As long as the majors continue attempts to match the friendliness of SWA and the customer amenities of JBLU with a small jet, I'd better start freshening my resume.
 

fly22

Well-Known Member
Re: \"Largest RJ order in history\" conflicts...

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I really hate to get into the RJ debate, but I think exactly two airlines actually figured out what the country wants.

SWA and JBLU -- and that's a hard pill to swallow for a Delta pilot.

It's not a matter of bypassing congested hubs, or flying from small countryside airports. SWA provides an economical ticket with reliable service and friendly customer support. JBLU provides in flight entertainment, a simple fee structure and supposedly a fun, clean environment on planes with "new jet" smell.

And I'm only speaking from my experiences talking to business travelers while deadheading or commuting to work -- most I've spoken to prefer a CL-65 over a Brasilia any day, but when it comes to choosing between an A-319 and a CL-65, frequent travelers tend to get pissy about leaving their carryons planeside, boarding in the rain/snow and purchasing a ticket for ABC air and ending up on 123 Express.

As long as the majors continue attempts to match the friendliness of SWA and the customer amenities of JBLU with a small jet, I'd better start freshening my resume.

[/ QUOTE ] Doug do you think they will be able to maintain what they are doing(SWA)? Once Herb and his click move on who knows what will happen!
 

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
Re: \"Largest RJ order in history\" conflicts...

[ QUOTE ]
Doug do you think they will be able to maintain what they are doing(SWA)? Once Herb and his click move on who knows what will happen!

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Herb did a good thing by closely choosing his successor. That position is all about leadership and if you get a weenie that doesn't understand that, let's put it this way, the airlines are (were) a lot like the "Walton Family".

Big family, lots of diversity, but everyone sat at the dinner table, worked everything out and passed the peas with a smile.

But one bad sibling, and the next thing you know, everyone's fighting, there's food being thrown and thanksgiving dinner is absolutely ruined.

A good example. Delta used to be a big family. Everyone got along, pulled on the same side of the rope and when people said, "Momma Delta", that's really the way the employees felt about the organization.

Now Ron Allen pops out of the woodwork with a head full of "book knowledge" and very little in terms of true charisma or even the ability to motivate and lead a workforce and singlehandedly destroyed 60-odd years of work in a few short years.

We were finally able to show Ron the door (at the cost of $10,000,000/year I think), but then the board of directors hires a banker to run the company.

That's another story!


I think SWA, by keeping people in leadership that have grown with the company, understand the business, and know that if you take great care of your employees, your employees in turn will take great care of the passengers, and the passengers will take great care of the company with repeat business.
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
Re: \"Largest RJ order in history\" conflicts...

[ QUOTE ]
I think SWA, by keeping people in leadership that have grown with the company, understand the business, and know that if you take great care of your employees, your employees in turn will take great care of the passengers, and the passengers will take great care of the company with repeat business.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is this such a hard concept for management types (and at any company, really) to grasp?

I think business school has completely and utterly removed the old saying "you get what you pay for" from ALL of their textbooks.

If you want to produce a qulity product, or perform a quality service, you must spend the friggin' money to do it. Crap in = crap out.

It takes money to make money.

Any other cliche's I can throw in here?


But seriously, they're cliche's because they're true.
 

fly22

Well-Known Member
Re: \"Largest RJ order in history\" conflicts...

Looks like I'll be trying to fly a 737 for the rest of my life while wearing bermuda boxers
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
Re: \"Largest RJ order in history\" conflicts...

Tonyw posted this over in the "Future of SWA thread" thought it was relevant.

BTW my mother just quit SWA as a res agent. When she quit they "cheated" her out of vacation pay - not so much directly as much as they just didn't know what the hell they were doing. She feels about the same way. And, she's not new to the industry. She flew for Ozark as a FA for 12 years ...


Check out today's Wall Street Journal. Here are a few excerpts.
]i]Inside Southwest Airlines,
Storied Culture Feels Strains
DALLAS -- One afternoon in February, a group of 40 flight attendants gathered at Dallas Love Field to vent their frustration with their employer. They carried signs declaring "Spread the LUV" -- their employer's stock symbol -- and handed out cards to travelers demanding "Give Our Flight Attendants a Break!"
Their bosses wanted to boost their workday to 13 hours from 10½. The attendants also didn't like the lack of meal breaks and the fact that they didn't get paid when their planes sat idle -- even though they spent that time cleaning the cabins.
This display of dissatisfaction from the flight attendants would have been unthinkable just a few years ago. That's because they work for Southwest Airlines.
Southwest's labor unions have become more vocal and aggressive. Workers who scrimp and sweat to boost earnings are seeing less return from profit sharing and a pummeled stock. And some longtime employees say that after years of pushing themselves to increase productivity, they simply can't give any more.
"We have been there for them," says Karen Amos, a 26-year Southwest veteran who took part in the flight-attendant protest. "There comes a time when it becomes too much."
Many veterans of the airline have complained that they have worked increasingly hard to boost productivity and profits, but without matching pay raises.
Lately, unions have increasingly sought "big airline" pay to match the airline's growing success, as opposed to the old days, when they'd settle for other incentives to help their underdog airline fly higher. In 1994, for example, in exchange for a stock-option award in their contract, pilots agreed to a five-year wage freeze that would help the company keep costs in check.
Unions are showing more frustration during negotiations, unlike the old days, when deals would generally be made more quickly and amicably. In the summer of 2001, ramp workers picketed near company headquarters with signs reading, "Record Profits Empty Pockets."
Meanwhile, the negotiations with the flight attendants have entered their 13th month. Management dropped the proposal about increasing daily hours, but the two sides are far apart on other issues. "In the old days," says Ms. Amos, "they would have negotiated more fairly."[/i]
 

davetheflyer

New Member
Re: \"Largest RJ order in history\" conflicts...

[ QUOTE ]
This is not to say that RJs don't have their place, I just don't buy into the "the-RJs-will-save-the-children-bring-world-peace-and-get-a-Dem-elected-to-the-presidency-for-the-next-100-years" attitude thats popular as of late. (Not slaming you R2F

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL


[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I really hate to get into the RJ debate, but I think exactly two airlines actually figured out what the country wants.

SWA and JBLU -- and that's a hard pill to swallow for a Delta pilot.



[/ QUOTE ]

I'd add Airtran to that list also. What the majors still havn't figured out is that by cutting capacity and flying smaller airplanes (when the competition is flying Airbuses, DC9s, and 737s) is that they are driving their customers away in droves. There are two types of customers who stay:

1. Those who live places that aren't served by LCCs, and
2. Those with Super Double VIP frequent flyer status.

There is a saying that insanity is repeating the same action over and over and expecting a different result. By that standard the CEOs and boards of all the majors should be put in rubber rooms.
 
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