Landing on a Closed Runway

[Bernoulli Fan]

Can you do it? I remember reading an article in some aviation magazine a couple months ago in which the author stated that you could ask to land on a closed or obstructed runway at your own risk (controlled airport, obviously).

I didn't think much of it at the time, but in the last few days, there have actually been a couple times where it would have been useful.

The first time, the runway wasn't actually closed, but local cleared a jet to position and hold prior to our arrival, then canceled the clearance just as the jet's nose crossed the hold short line. Local had us go around, and I briefly considered asking if we could land at our own risk, but decided against it. Could we have?

The second time, a jet was disabled approximately 4,000 feet down the runway favored by the wind, beyond two taxiway exits. Could a Cessna ask to land at its own risk and "hold short" of the obstacle? This seems less likely to me given that all I found on the Internet was how the FAA and JAA were trying to cut down on inadvertent landings on closed runways, but I remembered the magazine article and it got me to wondering.

I couldn't find anything in the FARs prohibiting landing on a closed runway, so maybe a state or local regulation might come into play.

 

[Ajax]

When I was a pre-private I visited the tower and we talked about this.

The airport I was flying out of had two parallel runways, and one closed runway that was converted to a taxiway. One night the winds were so bad that the controller told an incoming pilot that while he couldn't clear him to land on the taxiway he could turn a blind eye on it if it were a safer option in the pilots eyes.

I doubt this is actually legal, but IMO if it was the safer option as determined by the PIC then I'm OK with it.

I don't know all of the factors involved but if safety is a big question, I'm all for doing whatever is necessary to get on the ground safely. You can ask questions later.

 

[ppragman]

Can you do it? I remember reading an article in some aviation magazine a couple months ago in which the author stated that you could ask to land on a closed or obstructed runway at your own risk (controlled airport, obviously).

I didn't think much of it at the time, but in the last few days, there have actually been a couple times where it would have been useful.

The first time, the runway wasn't actually closed, but local cleared a jet to position and hold prior to our arrival, then canceled the clearance just as the jet's nose crossed the hold short line. Local had us go around, and I briefly considered asking if we could land at our own risk, but decided against it. Could we have?

The second time, a jet was disabled approximately 4,000 feet down the runway favored by the wind, beyond two taxiway exits. Could a Cessna ask to land at its own risk and "hold short" of the obstacle? This seems less likely to me given that all I found on the Internet was how the FAA and JAA were trying to cut down on inadvertent landings on closed runways, but I remembered the magazine article and it got me to wondering.

I couldn't find anything in the FARs prohibiting landing on a closed runway, so maybe a state or local regulation might come into play.

LAHSO has to be approved, however, I know that at the float pond here, as well as Fire Island Strip in Anchorage, you will often here, "floatpond/runway closed, landing will be at your ownrisk," and at Fire Island, "not in sight from the tower." So its doable.

 

[Inverted25]

Techincally you can land anywhere you want. Me and my instructor once landed in my uncle backyard. Given his backyard is his 10 acres and very flat grass but still I felt like a badass landing somewhere besides a regular airport.

edit: to be clear we talked to town officals before hand to make sure they had no local ordinaces against it and we talked to the local fsdo before doing so

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Techincally you can land anywhere you want. Me and my instructor once landed in my uncle backyard. Given his backyard is his 10 acres and very flat grass but still I felt like a badass landing somewhere besides a regular airport.

edit: to be clear we talked to town officals before hand to make sure they had no local ordinaces against it and we talked to the local fsdo before doing so

Gliders land on farm fields all the time. On cross countries, you often don't have a choice, and obviously no prior permission. They will also land on the grass next to a runway. I've done this when the runway is obstructed.

I've even seen aircraft depart perpendicular on a runway (winds were 30+ kts, it was a 50 foot takeoff roll)

 

[clestudentpilot]

ATC cannot clear you to land on a closed runway, or a taxiway of any sort (talking about airplanes hear, helicopters are a different story). They cannot issue any "at your own risk" or anything like that, it is closed for a reason. As a pilot, of course you can try to land somewhere other than where you are cleared to land (at a controlled airport), but I would expect an inspector to be knocking on your door fairly soon, after you are given a phone number to call by the tower. Obviously, uncontrolled field do have different rules, but again, if it is NOTAM'd closed, there is a reason for that, and I still think it would be very foolish to try to do that, and I would again, not be surprised to see FSDO pay a visit. If there is no NOTAM issued and you want to use a taxiway at an uncontrolled field, go for it...not always a smart idea, but no legal reason why you can't. Also, if you are somewhere, and crosswinds are an issue, it is probably much more wise to fly to another airport, where the crosswind is not an issue

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Also, if you are somewhere, and crosswinds are an issue, it is probably much more wise to fly to another airport, where the crosswind is not an issue

Not always an option.

And while ATC can't clear you for some things, that doesn't mean you as PIC can't determine that it is the safer option and advise ATC of your intentions. If you determine that making it to another airport is not feasible, do what you have to do and get the plane down. Declare an emergency if it makes you feel better

 

[FriendlySkies]

The first time, the runway wasn't actually closed, but local cleared a jet to position and hold prior to our arrival, then canceled the clearance just as the jet's nose crossed the hold short line. Local had us go around, and I briefly considered asking if we could land at our own risk, but decided against it. Could we have?

Runway Incursions are a huge topic when it comes to safety. Too many accidents have happened due to another aircraft taxiing onto an active runway. If an aircraft is already over the hold short position markings, who knows if that aircraft will continue farther. Also, if you land long to avoid the other, then you have to worry about landing on the first 1/3 of the runway rule.
Just avoid these situations, if possible, and go around. Sure you may be upset that you have to waste your time, but when you start to think you can do it and "land anywhere you want," that's when accidents will happen.
Be safe guys

 

[MikeD]

but when you start to think you can do it and "land anywhere you want," that's when accidents will happen.

Ahh, the beauty of helicopters. On short final to the runway coming out of the weather, someone on the runway....just sidestep to the sod or to the parallel taxiway. Or just get cleared to air taxi to whatever landing spot that works.

 

[Bernoulli Fan]

Runway Incursions are a huge topic when it comes to safety. Too many accidents have happened due to another aircraft taxiing onto an active runway. If an aircraft is already over the hold short position markings, who knows if that aircraft will continue farther. Also, if you land long to avoid the other, then you have to worry about landing on the first 1/3 of the runway rule.
Just avoid these situations, if possible, and go around. Sure you may be upset that you have to waste your time, but when you start to think you can do it and "land anywhere you want," that's when accidents will happen.
Be safe guys

I don't think I can land anywhere I want, but in some situations I can determine it's safe to land even when the rules may disallow it. How do I know the aircraft with the nose over the hold short line won't continue farther? I watch.

Seems like there's no definite answer here, or at least disagreement.

 

[itsbfinch]

At the airport I fly out of people will often takeoff and land from notam'd closed runways. We have a float pond that is notam'd closed all winter but pilots will "land at my risk" on ski planes without a problem. We also have a ski strip that is notam'd closed until there is enough snow but some pilots will take off and land "at their risk". Of course these are unusual circumstances at some airports

 

[woodreau]

It's not a landing event...

There was one time I took off on a "closed" runway. It wasn't that the runway was physically closed - everyone else was landing on the runway that I took off from, but it was NOTAM'ed closed to air carrier aircraft over 30 seats.

The normal runway (3/21) that we normally used at this airport is 7000ft long. On this particular day though the wind was a direct crosswind 310/35G50. The landing coming in was a bit squirrelly on 3, so I decided that it would be safer to use 31 for departure (3800ft long). We talked to the tower and asked if we could use 31 on the way out. The tower said he couldn't do it because of runway NOTAMd closed to air carrier aircraft over 30 seats. In the meantime, he's been using 31 for every other aircraft coming into the airport. I stated I was under 30 seats so the NOTAM didn't apply to me.

I talked to dispatch and SOC - they didn't see any problems using 31. We had the performance numbers for 31. We talked to the airport manager, and he didn't see why we couldn't use 31. So I think I had covered everyone, dispatch, the airport, performance data.

When it came time to taxi, he cleared to us taxi runway 3 for departure. I repeated the request for 31, and he said wasn't going to clear me for it and just said to taxi at my discretion and advise on CTAF.

So untowered CTAF self-announce procedures at a towered field with an active tower? That's what we did. We got to 31, tower cleared a GA aircraft for the option on 31. The aircraft did a touch and go, then we told the tower we were ready. Tower said, "Rwy 31 is closed, advise intentions on CTAF."

I'm thinking to myself and telling the FO - that's the controller doing a CYA on the tape in the event we make a smoking hole past the departure end of the runway.

We make our CTAF call - "XYZ 1234, departing runway 31, eastbound departure to 9,000ft." After our CTAF call, tower followed immediately, "Cessna 123AB, Beech 1900 on the takeoff roll, cleared for the option rwy 31."

Once we were airborne, tower handed us off to center and that was the last we heard of that.

 

[tlewis95]

Gliders land on farm fields all the time. On cross countries, you often don't have a choice, and obviously no prior permission. They will also land on the grass next to a runway. I've done this when the runway is obstructed.

I've even seen aircraft depart perpendicular on a runway (winds were 30+ kts, it was a 50 foot takeoff roll)

Basically what I was going to bring up. I have also launched/landed gliders on closed runways, actually, it was a closed airport. (Reese AFB in Lubbock, TX)

Obviously, before landing or taking off from any closed runway, it would be great to know why it was closed, and the condition of it. Landing the gliders in farm fields... is exciting because you don't know much about it at all.

I also don't recommend landing gliders in the grass next to runways as a routine procedure. At a home airport, where maybe the grass is maintained as a runway, but not listed at one, that is fine and pretty normal (we have one where I fly gliders). But a cross country pilot landing out at an unfamiliar airport, I would say that it is a bad idea. Plenty of people have tried just landing in the grass, maybe because they were inexperienced or scared with pavement, and bent some serious sailplane when they hit that ditch that they could not see because of the foot tall grass.

/rant

 

[Fly_Unity]

In MT its legal to land on public roads. Ive done touch and goes on different roads in the cub. One town here has a fly-in every Sat morning, everyone lands downtown, taxi's up main street, and into the restaurant parking lot.

 

[shdw]

then you have to worry about landing on the first 1/3 of the runway rule.

Where did you find this rule? Or is it your personal limitation?

OP: It cannot hurt to ask. The next time you are in a situation where you want to land somewhere and don't know if you can, ask the controller. It isn't like he/she is going to pull out the sniper rifle cause some pesky 172 asked to land on a perfectly good piece of pavement/grass. Now if you ask to land on top of his tower building, you may have issues.

Worst case, declare. Then you can do whatever you want and so long as you aren't reckless and don't cause harm you will likely fly another day.

 

[shdw]

One town here has a fly-in every Sat morning, everyone lands downtown, taxi's up main street, and into the restaurant parking lot.

Ok now that is badass. Where is this town and what are their thoughts on visitors? :rawk:

 

[cmill]

ATC cannot clear you to land on a closed runway, or a taxiway of any sort (talking about airplanes hear, helicopters are a different story). They cannot issue any "at your own risk" or anything like that, it is closed for a reason. As a pilot, of course you can try to land somewhere other than where you are cleared to land (at a controlled airport), but I would expect an inspector to be knocking on your door fairly soon, after you are given a phone number to call by the tower. Obviously, uncontrolled field do have different rules, but again, if it is NOTAM'd closed, there is a reason for that, and I still think it would be very foolish to try to do that, and I would again, not be surprised to see FSDO pay a visit. If there is no NOTAM issued and you want to use a taxiway at an uncontrolled field, go for it...not always a smart idea, but no legal reason why you can't. Also, if you are somewhere, and crosswinds are an issue, it is probably much more wise to fly to another airport, where the crosswind is not an issue

I'm sorry, almost everything about that is false. I take it you've never been to a single runway airport that has the runway closed, and been cleared to land on a taxi-way?

There is absolutely nothing in the fars that says where i cant land. If something bad does happen, then I'm in for trouble. It always comes down to local laws. I've been in a controlled airport with an open runway and landed on a taxi-way. They gave me a land at your own risk type spill.

When it comes right down to it, if i think i can safely do it, ill land wherever the hell I damn well please. This might be the float pilot coming out in me, but we routinely land in perilous conditions, its just a part of life.

 

[clestudentpilot]

I'm sorry, almost everything about that is false. I take it you've never been to a single runway airport that has the runway closed, and been cleared to land on a taxi-way?

There is absolutely nothing in the fars that says where i cant land. If something bad does happen, then I'm in for trouble. It always comes down to local laws. I've been in a controlled airport with an open runway and landed on a taxi-way. They gave me a land at your own risk type spill.

When it comes right down to it, if i think i can safely do it, ill land wherever the hell I damn well please. This might be the float pilot coming out in me, but we routinely land in perilous conditions, its just a part of life.

You can think what you want, but ATC can't clear an airplane on a taxiway, or a closed runway. That is from the .65. I was speaking of normal ops, not emergencies. At a controlled field, without having an emergency, try landing wherever you want, see how far that gets you. I'm sure FSDO will sweep that one under the rug.

You are correct, the FAR's don't say you can't do it, but I was speaking at a controlled field, but I guess that means nothing. For now on, just land wherever you want to at a controlled field, complying with ATC is option after all, isn't it

At a controlled field, with a single runway, and that runway is closed, unless a taxiway has temporarily been converted to a runway (in which case it is no longer a taxiway, it is now a runway), no ATC cannot clear you on it...there is no gray area here. You may have been given a land at your own risk speel for a taxiway, but that in no way contradicts what I said, ATC still cannot clear you on it. I said they cannot do that on anything CLOSED.

As I said, get cleared to land on RWY 18, then decide that you will land "land wherever the hell I damn well please". I'm sure that works out well all the time. And please, don't bring up emergency situations, because that is an irrelevant arguement since pretty much all rules go out the window then. Everyone like to bring up the emergencies, but I don't think the OP was talking about emergencies. No one needs to be told that you do what you have to do in an emergency.

After re-reading my post, there is nothing incorrect about it, and I don't even see how you can argue with what I said, and come to think of it, your arguments did not in any way contradict my post, so I'm assuming you didn't even read it

 

[cmill]

You can think what you want, but ATC can't clear an airplane on a taxiway, or a closed runway. That is from the .65. I was speaking of normal ops, not emergencies. At a controlled field, without having an emergency, try landing wherever you want, see how far that gets you. I'm sure FSDO will sweep that one under the rug.

You are correct, the FAR's don't say you can't do it, but I was speaking at a controlled field, but I guess that means nothing. For now on, just land wherever you want to at a controlled field, complying with ATC is option after all, isn't it

At a controlled field, with a single runway, and that runway is closed, unless a taxiway has temporarily been converted to a runway (in which case it is no longer a taxiway, it is now a runway), no ATC cannot clear you on it...there is no gray area here. You may have been given a land at your own risk speel for a taxiway, but that in no way contradicts what I said, ATC still cannot clear you on it. I said they cannot do that on anything CLOSED.

As I said, get cleared to land on RWY 18, then decide that you will land "land wherever the hell I damn well please". I'm sure that works out well all the time. And please, don't bring up emergency situations, because that is an irrelevant arguement since pretty much all rules go out the window then. Everyone like to bring up the emergencies, but I don't think the OP was talking about emergencies. No one needs to be told that you do what you have to do in an emergency.

After re-reading my post, there is nothing incorrect about it, and I don't even see how you can argue with what I said, and come to think of it, your arguments did not in any way contradict my post, so I'm assuming you didn't even read it

I never said ATC could clear me to land on a taxiway, and i really dont need them to. I dont even need to be in an emergency situation. If in my opinion im better off landing somewhere besides a runway, then ill do it.

Dont even talk about being cleared to land on a runway and then landing somewhere else. Anytime I land somewhere, i make sure ATC knows where im going.

Get some real world experience and talk to me once you graduate from pampers.

 

[clestudentpilot]

I never said ATC could clear me to land on a taxiway, and i really dont need them to. I dont even need to be in an emergency situation. If in my opinion im better off landing somewhere besides a runway, then ill do it.

Dont even talk about being cleared to land on a runway and then landing somewhere else. Anytime I land somewhere, i make sure ATC knows where im going.

Get some real world experience and talk to me once you graduate from pampers.

Well, what you did say is that everything about what I said was wrong, which is inaccurate! Apparently I need to go line by line through my post to see my inaccuracies, which yoou seem to think are so blatant.

ATC cannot clear you to land on a closed runway, or a taxiway of any sort (talking about airplanes hear, helicopters are a different story).

Nothing inaccurate there, that is from the .65. In your previous example of a single runway being closed, and using the taxiway, the taxiway would be a runway in that case, since it is temporarily converted, so ATC still hasn't cleared you on a runway.

They cannot issue any "at your own risk" or anything like that, it is closed for a reason.

I don't see how this one could even be argued...it is closed for a reason, and they don't even want that one on the tapes.

As a pilot, of course you can try to land somewhere other than where you are cleared to land (at a controlled airport), but I would expect an inspector to be knocking on your door fairly soon, after you are given a phone number to call by the tower.

Again, still is correct. Land somewhere other than where you're cleared, and I doubt ATC will look the other way, you more than likely will be reported.

Obviously, uncontrolled field do have different rules, but again, if it is NOTAM'd closed, there is a reason for that, and I still think it would be very foolish to try to do that, and I would again, not be surprised to see FSDO pay a visit.

Still correct, as you pointed out yourself, you can land anywhere you want. If it is closed, however, there probably is a very good reason, even if it isn't apparent at a simple visual inspection.

If there is no NOTAM issued and you want to use a taxiway at an uncontrolled field, go for it...not always a smart idea, but no legal reason why you can't.

Again, I doubt there would be an argument here. Land on a taxiway, or wherever you want. Maybe not always wise, but sometimes it's no biggie.

Also, if you are somewhere, and crosswinds are an issue, it is probably much more wise to fly to another airport, where the crosswind is not an issue

Again, I don't know how this is incorrect. If crosswinds are an issue, a better bet than landing on a taxiway or closed runway, is just to go somewhere where the winds are closer to the runway.

After going through that, I still have no idea how you think that everything is false (your words, you specifically said "I'm sorry, almost everything about that is false"). Again, I have to assume you must have not read it. I'm done with this thread, though, I'm sure you'll come back and tell me how stupid I am, or bring up more points that in no way contradict my post. I also know, since you, oh wise one, pointed out, that since I am an inexperienced pilot, that I just don't have a clue about anything I'm talking about, so you have your wish, I will be done with this thread. I need to go change my pampers anyway, since I apparently have not graduated from them