Landing Incident @ SFO

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ryan1234 said:
I think I understand what you're saying. However, when you have 200-300 lives in your hands the expectations are high, and rightfully so. I know it's not feasible to debrief and critique every flight and EVERY pilot will make mistakes.... but on the other hand not every pilot should be a pilot. The pendulum has to stay in the middle and can't swing towards the "I just made a mistake=get out of jail free card".
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What bothers me about this post is pilots being on the "lookout" for pilots that don't belong because of "x". This job really isn't rocket surgery and when you start pretending it is, you get into the ACA mentality or the Pinnacle mentality of "shoot the least, educate the rest." (I may be screwing up that cliche a little)

The only thing constant is change, be it a new airplane, or the fifth new way the company found to fly the same airplane. Education and patience is paramount, and some pilots get left behind. Sometimes that means a get out of jail free card.

Although my sympathies may swing the wrong way because of what I've witnessed from my company the last year. From what I've seen in Mesaba's and Pinnacle's past, the ones crying the loudest that pilots don't belong because they "weren't meant to be pilots" are the ones who need the most work on the team concept.
 
NickH said:
I very sincerely hope that you are not in a cockpit when a 'human error' happens nearby. But if you did, I think I'd enjoy watching a trial with someone seeking damages for your negligent actions. I'd like to see the judges face as you explain how the definition of negligence has been changed, and how pilots can't be negligent any more, and that no one is to blame for your error.

I DO agree with a lot of what you are saying. I agree that identification and tracking of minor errors, identifying the causes and correcting them is an important safety concept. But that doesn't change the fact that pilots making careless mistakes is negligent. By every conceivable definition of the word.

There is a hypocrisy in arguing that airline pilots deserve better pay because of the high level of responsibility involved with the profession, when also trying to deny that same responsibility.
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Missing the point. Completely.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
The point isn't to resolve them of their responsibility. It's to stop punishing errors, and encourage a reporting culture. For every accident/incident, there are countless other close calls. In a just culture, the close calls are reported, and the root causes are identified before the "big one" happens.

In an unjust culture, the close calls are not reported, and the first time anyone becomes aware that there's an issue is when the accident happens.
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Shall we discuss the meanings of resolve and absolve? Maybe I'll just know what you mean and not try to act superior.

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ryan1234 said:
I think I understand what you're saying. However, when you have 200-300 lives in your hands the expectations are high, and rightfully so. I know it's not feasible to debrief and critique every flight and EVERY pilot will make mistakes.... but on the other hand not every pilot should be a pilot. The pendulum has to stay in the middle and can't swing towards the "I just made a mistake=get out of jail free card".
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No one is saying that it is a get out of jail free card. Quite the contrary. There are significant lessons to be learned from ASAP, which has its underpinnings from the just culture model. Those lessons make the whole system safer.

Could you roast someone for reading his iPad, and therefore missing a crossing restriction? Sure, but you would put the firehose of data received from the program in jeopardy. That's what this is all about. Increasing safety, not pointing fingers.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
No one is saying that it is a get out of jail free card. Quite the contrary. There are significant lessons to be learned from ASAP, which has its underpinnings from the just culture model. Those lessons make the whole system safer.

Could you roast someone for reading his iPad, and therefore missing a crossing restriction? Sure, but you would put the firehouse of data received from the program in jeopardy. That's what this is all about. Increasing safety, not pointing fingers.
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I know of a company that used ASAP data to go after a pilot then the FAA and the union shut down the program until it was understood it was not to be used for that purpose.
 
Derg said:
I know of a company that used ASAP data to go after a pilot then the FAA and the union shut down the program until it was understood it was not to be used for that purpose.
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Yup. We have a long way to go, for sure. Looking around on here only reinforces that.
 
Derg said:
YMMV but at my airline, nope.
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That's two 'nopes' that I've seen, and that is good news. From what I understand (and this is a bit of news to me), I could count the number of landings many long haul pilots make in a month on one hand. I imagine the number of hand-flown and/or visual approaches number even fewer. That's mildly disconcerting to me. Were I wearing those shoes, I'd want to hop in a Level D every once in a while and hammer out some landings, even if I'd rather be eating bacon tacos at the time.
 
Everybody knows what you're talking about. Just saying maybe spend less time trying to show your command of language and more on the "error" that we are all speculating about.

I still say its over dependence on automation at the root of it all.

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SteveCostello said:
That's two 'nopes' that I've seen, and that is good news. From what I understand (and this is a bit of news to me), I could count the number of landings many long haul pilots make in a month on one hand. I imagine the number of hand-flown and/or visual approaches number even fewer. That's mildly disconcerting to me. Were I wearing those shoes, I'd want to hop in a Level D every once in a while and hammer out some landings, even if I'd rather be eating bacon tacos at the time.
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Choco tacos. FWIW at our operation, we do airport fam flights for pilots who haven't been to certain airports in our system. If a pilot feels they need to do another fam flight, usually it can be worked out on the way back to base.
 
SteveCostello said:
That's two 'nopes' that I've seen, and that is good news. From what I understand (and this is a bit of news to me), I could count the number of landings many long haul pilots make in a month on one hand. I imagine the number of hand-flown and/or visual approaches number even fewer. That's mildly disconcerting to me. Were I wearing those shoes, I'd want to hop in a Level D every once in a while and hammer out some landings, even if I'd rather be eating bacon tacos at the time.
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I probably takeoff and land maybe twice a month.

I will readily admit that I don't have nearly the "muscle memory" on the 767 that I did on the Mad Dog, but I have more time in the 76.

I actually enjoy flying the simulator, if I lived closer to Joe-Juh I'd probably creep in there every once in a while.
 
desertdog71 said:
Everybody knows what you're talking about. Just saying maybe spend less time trying to show your command of language and more on the "error" that we are all speculating about.

I still say its over dependence on automation at the root of it all.

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It isn't about command of the language. I know you think this is all semantics, but it isn't. There are still people out there, many of them in positions of authority, who do not understand just culture, and therefore make aviation less safe. If I can get one or two people on here to read a book or two, and maybe come into the 21st century, then that's a win.
 
jynxyjoe said:
What bothers me about this post is pilots being on the "lookout" for pilots that don't belong because of "x". This job really isn't rocket surgery and when you start pretending it is, you get into the ACA mentality or the Pinnacle mentality of "shoot the least, educate the rest." (I may be screwing up that cliche a little)

The only thing constant is change, be it a new airplane, or the fifth new way the company found to fly the same airplane. Education and patience is paramount, and some pilots get left behind. Sometimes that means a get out of jail free card.

Although my sympathies may swing the wrong way because of what I've witnessed from my company the last year. From what I've seen in Mesaba's and Pinnacle's past, the ones crying the loudest that pilots don't belong because they "weren't meant to be pilots" are the ones who need the most work on the team concept.
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Dude, the reality is that some pilots just aren't made for it. Nothing personal towards them... but, like you say it isn't rocket surgery. I'll be honest with you, I can't really speak to the 121 training environment. I realize it isn't the military, but sometimes it isn't a bad thing to be hard on people and expect them to perform. There are a lot people who don't really care... maybe they can pass check rides... but are just bad pilots.

My message here and previously isn't to start a witch hunt, but rather just say that the reality is not every one is meant to have 200-300 lives in their hands. It just is what it is.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
It isn't about command of the language. I know you think this is all semantics, but it isn't. There are still people out there, many of them in positions of authority, who do not understand just culture, and therefore make aviation less safe. If I can get one or two people on here to read a book or two, and maybe come into the 21st century, then that's a win.
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And I say some good old fashioned not depending on 21st century technology may have changed the outcome.

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desertdog71 said:
And I say some good old fashioned not depending on 21st century technology may have changed the outcome.

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Possibly. But the whole point is discovering the underlying issues, and fixing them. And I'm not talking about technology. From what we've learned so far, there appear to be significant culture issues at play here. Of course when the report comes out, we will see for sure.

There was more at play here than stick and rudder skills.
 
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