Landing Incident @ SFO

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JustinS said:
My next question. How in the world did they get themselves into such a bad spot at such a critical moment? Fatigue sounds like it could be a factor, but even at that are pilots not most alert during the final moments of flight? I know I'm pretty alert during all my landings for good reason.
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Human factors performance report will try and answer those questions. Pilots at various airlines throughout the world have stalled on approach before on more than one occasion.
 
nc1982 said:
If ain't Boeing, I ain't going. Good god that plane is a tank. The design and sturdiness of that plane saved those people.
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People laugh, but they really are. We've all seen some horrific accident aftermaths and I am amazed at how much the aircraft(s) can actually endure. This incident has a commonality with the current accident and just look at her:

turkish-flight-1951-p2.jpg


TK1951broken.jpg


Only 9 perished, including three crew.
 
Dan Rose, attorney, former US Navy pilot, "owns his own airplane."

"In the US Navy, every carrier landing was recorded." {in regards to why there are no cameras recording landings at SFO}
 
I just read CNN's update and supposedly at 7 seconds prior to impact they called for more power, and at 1.5 seconds before impact a go around was announced. Similar to what everyone else is saying why didn't one of the FOUR crew members say something before this point.... It wasn't like he missed the threshold by a few feet, he missed the entire displaced threshold, blast pad, and clipped the seawall based on the debris pictures. It will be interesting to see the full CVR transcript to see if they were making proper callouts, and what was said between the flight crew during the whole approach. Unfortunately for now all we can do is sit back and wait as the information is slowly released by the NTSB as they do their investigation..... As others have said I am almost certain they will attempt to question the United crew that was holding short who probably had the best view, and you can hear in the background of the ATC tape another controller stating their was an accident, so possibly one of them was watching the approach or saw it occur which could be very helpful. Most importantly the fact that all four flight crew members are alive will help since they can interview them all separately for their individual opinions. Looking back on the numerous Korean Air incidents some of those FO's or FE's said something last minute, maybe here something similar occurred..... I think we all will be eagerly waiting to see the outcome of this investigation and watching it very closely.
 
Zidac said:
Found this on a few news articles:

"Yoon, the Asiana president, described the pilots as "skilled," saying three had logged more than 10,000 hours each of flight time. He said the fourth had put in almost that much time, but officials later corrected that to say the fourth had logged nearly 5,000 hours. All four are South Koreans."
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After some thought.... I honestly think the fact that the crew was this experienced makes this whole incident even more alarming to me. Certainly almost everybody on board the aircraft (besides the pilot flying, undoubtedly) had to be noticing the situation that was starting to develop. I know that possibly fatigue could have been an issue, but isn't the entire point of running dual flight crews on something like this is to somewhat combat fatigue? Even if they were tired, it looks like they would have still been able to notice the dangerous situation that they were getting into. I know that there was some talk on here earlier about the Korean culture and how it can affect CRM. I am by no means going to sit here and say that this was a FOR SURE incident like that, but I just have a hard time believing that none of the pilots were concerned about the situation around the 15 seconds before impact point.
 
desertdog71 said:
WTF??? I hope not.

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Look at those Turkish 737-800 pics. Faulty RA made the airplane enter flare mode and power to idle, and pitch up to land while they were still out 600-800 feet. Should have been "obvious" right? Instead, they basically stalled hard into the ground, 1 CA, new 1 FO, and 1 additional pilot in jumpseat. The Colgan Air crew also stalled on approach and crashed. There are other examples where too low/too slow has caused aircrews to crash.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Human factors performance report will try and answer those questions. Pilots at various airlines throughout the world have stalled on approach before on more than one occasion.
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Uhhhh NO. Clearly you must not be a professional pilot.

Edit: Sorry I read this to mean that you thought it was commonplace for pilots to stall on approach.
 
Muff3n said:
After some thought.... I honestly think the fact that the crew was this experienced makes this whole incident even more alarming to me. Certainly almost everybody on board the aircraft (besides the pilot flying, undoubtedly) had to be noticing the situation that was starting to develop. I know that possibly fatigue could have been an issue, but isn't the entire point of running dual flight crews on something like this is to somewhat combat fatigue? Even if they were tired, it looks like they would have still been able to notice the dangerous situation that they were getting into. I know that there was some talk on here earlier about the Korean culture and how it can affect CRM. I am by no means going to sit here and say that this was a FOR SURE incident like that, but I just have a hard time believing that none of the pilots were concerned about the situation around the 15 seconds before impact point.
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You're assuming they knew and saw it coming 15 seconds prior. In the Turkish case, 3 qualified pilots missed flare mode and power back to idle at 700 feet AGL and stalled into the ground. Human factors report will show (hopefully) how each performed and what their mental status was at the time. How much did they sleep? Did they nap properly on their onboard break? Insomnia? It could be any of a bunch of factors.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Look at those Turkish 737-800 pics. Faulty RA made the airplane enter flare mode and power to idle, and pitch up to land while they were still out 600-800 feet. Should have been "obvious" right? Instead, they basically stalled hard into the ground, 1 CA, new 1 FO, and 1 additional pilot in jumpseat. The Colgan Air crew also stalled on approach and crashed. There are other examples where too low/too slow has caused aircrews to crash.
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Every single one of those incidents are gross pilot error, with multiple errors along the chain. Don't even get me started on Colgan 3407.
 
Inverted said:
Uhhhh NO. Clearly you must not be a professional pilot.
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Um, yes. The Colgan crash was one example. The Turkish crash was another recent one where the plane's faulty RA #1 reading 0 made the airplane enter flare mode and power at idle, and 3 pilots in that cockpit couldn't react properly to recover.

What does any of that have to do with me not being a professional pilot?
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Look at those Turkish 737-800 pics. Faulty RA made the airplane enter flare mode and power to idle, and pitch up to land while they were still out 600-800 feet. Should have been "obvious" right? Instead, they basically stalled hard into the ground, 1 CA, new 1 FO, and 1 additional pilot in jumpseat. The Colgan Air crew also stalled on approach and crashed. There are other examples where too low/too slow has caused aircrews to crash.
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And not continually, meticulously monitoring your altitude and speed.
 
Inverted said:
Uhhhh NO. Clearly you must not be a professional pilot.

Edit: Sorry I read this to mean that you thought it was commonplace for pilots to stall on approach.
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It's not commonplace, but every airline has done it at one time or another. Maybe not on approach, but certainly in the terminal environment. It's REALLY easy to pull the power back for a speed reduction, get distracted, and have the aircraft stall.
 
pete2800 said:
Flight-idle while slow, low, and dirty in a swept-wing jet is a big no-no, is it not?

*straight-wing prop guy, here.
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Bad things can happen.
Maybe some 121 guys can comment, but I've seen experienced pilots become masters at a bad technique, including chopping power. Because the outcome is acceptable, they do not receive the criticism that is due.
 
Just glad they didn't plow it nose first into the sea-wall. Few hundred FPM more on the decent or a handful of knots slower and this could have ended very badly.
 
looking at this picture you can use the video to compare and see the line the nose marks on the ground as the back end elevates and the entire fuselage rotates around the pivot point of the nose.

Also appears to show another mark tracing diagonally off to the north side of the RWY (left side of picture). Maybe that is the "missing engine".

173082788.jpg
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
You're assuming they knew and saw it coming 15 seconds prior. In the Turkish case, 3 qualified pilots missed flare mode and power back to idle at 700 feet AGL and stalled into the ground. Human factors report will show (hopefully) how each performed and what their mental status was at the time. How much did they sleep? Did they nap properly on their onboard break? Insomnia? It could be any of a bunch of factors.
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I do understand the angle that you are coming from, but if that was the case then that is still pretty dang alarming to me. It will indeed be very interesting to get the human factors report from this, I agree.
 
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