Landing Incident @ SFO

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TripSix said:
I listened to a phone interview given by one of the passengers earlier. He stated it took "20-30 minutes for ambulances to show up," and "the firefighters were lagging hard. I've been sitting at the airport for four hours for nothing so we're not really impressed with the whole protocol and the systems in place for this type of thing."

And yet, here you are...sitting safely in the terminal giving an interview to the media. Jesus.

I, for one, continue to be tremendously impressed with ARFF. Honestly, you never want to see these guys/gals put to work - but damn, hats off to all of you...
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Am certain the ambulances were there in the area, but they don't necessarily go directly to the scene itself and in the middle of everything; they're generally sent to a staging point by the Incident Commander, so that they're not in the way of firefighting and rescue operations in progress, where you have CFR trucks constantly moving and positioning/repositioning. They can't be blocked or have to bother with obstacles such as other vehicles including ambulances. The ambo's were there, but very likely weren't right there on the immediate scene or fireground in the initial stages of fire attack.
 
canadian_atc said:
It's somewhat comforting to know these guys/gals around the world are so damn good at their job.
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Unfortunately, not all are or have been that great. Saudia 163 incident demonstrated that all too well, unfortunately, when it came to the exceptionally poor CFR response.
 
From an investigation viewpoint, some big questions I would have apart from exactly how or why what was a seemingly fine aircraft on an intermediate segment of a landing approach (whether with azimuth guidance or purely visual), ended up somewhere shy of or near brick-one, are these:

- What type of approach were they flying, guided or unguided, what were they cleared for?

-Flight time, duty times, full 72 hour histories of the flight crew, with emphasis on any fatigue flags.

- Training/background history of the flightcrew

- Any WX factors beyone VMC such as winds, which would be easily garnered from the Special mid-hourly METAR that is always taken by the tower immediately after an aircraft mishap.

- Maintenance history of the aircraft and anything standing out airframe/powerplant/avionics wise.

- Human factors beyond fatigue and CRM, such as visual illusions and whether or not they'd be a factor

- Surviability of the airframe: How/Why the airframe ended up as it did, with the specific damage it had. Where were the impact points and resultant damage/failure points? What started the post-crash fire and what was it's propogation?

- Survivability of the crew/pax: What were the injuries and where were they located in the aircraft? Why was the accident survivable for the ones who survived; and why was it not survivable for the two fatally injured pax?

- Relevant FDR and CVR data, namely to see what the aircraft was doing at the time and what the crew information was at the time; as well as ATC tapes and direct witness statements from all sources.

Those are the big ones, off the top of my head, that are being worked on as we speak.
 
MikeD said:
From an investigation viewpoint, some big questions I would have apart from exactly how or why what was a seemingly fine aircraft on an intermediate segment of a landing approach (whether with azimuth guidance or purely visual), ended up somewhere shy of or near brick-one, are these:

- What type of approach were they flying, guided or unguided, what were they cleared for?

-Flight time, duty times, full 72 hour histories of the flight crew, with emphasis on any fatigue flags.

- Training/background history of the flightcrew

- Any WX factors beyone VMC such as winds, which would be easily garnered from the Special mid-hourly METAR that is always taken by the tower immediately after an aircraft mishap.

- Maintenance history of the aircraft and anything standing out airframe/powerplant/avionics wise.

- Human factors beyond fatigue and CRM, such as visual illusions and whether or not they'd be a factor

- Surviability of the airframe: How/Why the airframe ended up as it did, with the specific damage it had. Where were the impact points and resultant damage/failure points? What started the post-crash fire and what was it's propogation?

- Survivability of the crew/pax: What were the injuries and where were they located in the aircraft? Why was the accident survivable for the ones who survived; and why was it not survivable for the two fatally injured pax?

- Relevant FDR and CVR data, namely to see what the aircraft was doing at the time and what the crew information was at the time; as well as ATC tapes and direct witness statements from all sources.

Those are the big ones, off the top of my head, that are being worked on as we speak.
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Use of flight aware?
 
scooter2525 said:
Use of flight aware?
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With a state of the art and modern FDR that isn't damaged? And with other instrumentation onboard that data could likely be garnered from? No, I wouldn't bother with flightaware. I would compare data from the FDR and/or other avionics to what flightaware has reported, if just for my own curiousity.

As for an unofficial source of information to discuss, understanding that it isn't in any way confirmed (which has been acknowledged a number of times in this thread by many), for the purposes here it does garner some interest on potential performance trends. But officially, it's not something I'd use as an investigator when other more accurate first-hand sources would be available to me.
 
MikeD said:
With a state of the art and modern FDR that isn't damaged? And with other instrumentation onboard that data could likely be garnered from? No, I wouldn't bother with flightaware. I would compare data from the FDR and/or other avionics to what flightaware has reported, if just for my own curiousity.

As for an unofficial source of information to discuss, understanding that it isn't in any way confirmed (which has been acknowledged a number of times in this thread by many), for the purposes here it does garner some interest on potential performance trends. But officially, it's not something I'd use as an investigator when other more accurate first-hand sources would be available to me.
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Exactly.
 
Crazy day. I was woken up by both a co-worker and my sister who witnessed the crash first hand(my co-worker from the airport and my sister from the hills above the airport). My co-worker said it looked like the plane was pitching up for a go-around, and all within mere seconds the tail struck, blew apart, the plane stopped, and there was thick black smoke and flames. My sister said it looked like an explosion had occurred, she thought a bomb, because the plane stopped so abruptly and erupted with smoke so violently. Neither knew much about flying so I figured they were exaggerating. Turned out they weren't, but no pics were up anywhere yet so I drove up to SFO with my buddy and girlfriend to check out what was happening. Within 20 minutes of the accident, San Jose had an endless stream of diverted airliners, mostly United and Virgin America, and most international flights were holding or headed to Oakland or Sacramento. Figured it had to be pretty serious when they went straight to diverting indicating a pro-longed delay. When I got there 30 minutes later, the fire was already out. Passengers were still being evacuated by helicopters and ambulances, and this continued for a long time. The last ambulance left about 3 hours or so after the accident. The United 747 seen in pics online ended up being hooked up to a tug and towed ever so slowly and carefully around the wreckage and back to the gate, just before the last ambulances showed up. Those pax and the crew must have had one hell of a view of what happened, be interested in hearing their stories. SFO was totally shut down until around 5PM when they started letting a few flights depart off the 19s. Very few departures actually left in the first two hours of the re-opening, mostly Skywest surprisingly given the usual priority they get when SFO goes FUBAR. I have a friend at Asiana CS who must have had a hell of a day, as did the Swissport rampers who I'm told could actually watch the plane crash from the gate as it was called "on the ground". International terminal filled up after the re-opening so fast they couldn't find gates. Imagine being on a 747 from Hong Kong, going-around, holding, diverting to a strange city, then once you arrive at your destination after 20+ hours in the airplane, they have no gates for you and nothing is pushing anytime soon. Bad situation all around today. The cargo ramp at SJC late tonight had over 10+ RON airplanes, mostly United, that had been sitting there since diverting before noon. Wouldn't want to be flying tomorrow. Got some shots, the scene was surreal and I'll be following this very closely.
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staledog said:
Sorry...but I gotta say I don't give a crap about that. If you can't do a visual approach, on a clear day, to a large international airport... You shouldn't be flying a 777. (Or any airplane). Screw "the culture over there". Land the airplane. If you can't do it VMC how the heck can you do it at 1/2 and 200ft.
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Understood. But I bet to these guys 200 and 1/2 is 10x easier than a visual. Listen, if it comes out that indeed the pilots screwed up I am no means defending them. Yea if you are a competent aviator, a visual approach should be no sweat. But instead of blaming the individual pilot, blame the system. Blame the way they do things over there in the training department. In the 121 world here in the states, assertiveness in CRM is viewed as a fundamental principal in CRM and one a pilot should have. Assertiveness in Korea can get you fired or reprimanded.
 
ChasenSFO said:
Crazy day. I was woken up by both a co-worker and my sister who witnessed the crash first hand(my co-worker from the airport and my sister from the hills above the airport). My co-worker said it looked like the plane was pitching up for a go-around, and all within mere seconds the tail struck, blew apart, the plane stopped, and there was thick black smoke and flames. My sister said it looked like an explosion had occurred, she thought a bomb, because the plane stopped so abruptly and erupted with smoke so violently. Neither knew much about flying so I figured they were exaggerating. Turned out they weren't, but no pics were up anywhere yet so I drove up to SFO with my buddy and girlfriend to check out what was happening. Within 20 minutes of the accident, San Jose had an endless stream of diverted airliners, mostly United and Virgin America, and most international flights were holding or headed to Oakland or Sacramento. Figured it had to be pretty serious when they went straight to diverting indicating a pro-longed delay. When I got there 30 minutes later, the fire was already out. Passengers were still being evacuated by helicopters and ambulances, and this continued for a long time. The last ambulance left about 3 hours or so after the accident. The United 747 seen in pics online ended up being hooked up to a tug and towed ever so slowly and carefully around the wreckage and back to the gate, just before the last ambulances showed up. Those pax and the crew must have had one hell of a view of what happened, be interested in hearing their stories. SFO was totally shut down until around 5PM when they started letting a few flights depart off the 19s. Very few departures actually left in the first two hours of the re-opening, mostly Skywest surprisingly given the usual priority they get when SFO goes FUBAR. I have a friend at Asiana CS who must have had a hell of a day, as did the Swissport rampers who I'm told could actually watch the plane crash from the gate as it was called "on the ground". International terminal filled up after the re-opening so fast they couldn't find gates. Imagine being on a 747 from Hong Kong, going-around, holding, diverting to a strange city, then once you arrive at your destination after 20+ hours in the airplane, they have no gates for you and nothing is pushing anytime soon. Bad situation all around today. The cargo ramp at SJC late tonight had over 10+ RON airplanes, mostly United, that had been sitting there since diverting before noon. Wouldn't want to be flying tomorrow. Got some shots, the scene was surreal and I'll be following this very closely.
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Thanks for this write up.
 
I would point out these Asiana students are largely trained in the US. The culture does make a difference, but then they are largely middle class funded students, so the motivation isn't necessarily there.

We need to look at the training getting more boot camp.
 
rjmore said:
Besides, my father used to say that speculating on these things is like sleeping with your sister. Sure she's a great piece of tail with a blouse full of goodies....but it's just illegal. Then you get into that whole inbred thing, kids with no teeth who do nothing but play the banjo...eat applesauce through a straw...pork farm animals. ;)
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"I departed SFO a few hours before this tragic accident in a heavy jet.

Our approach to SFO was 'interesting' to say the least. It was the usual, over the field and downwind at 11000 ft, full speedbrake and lots of flap to get down before the inevitable early turn to base.
Cleared for a visual on 28L maintaining own separation from an A320 joining visually on 28R.
High ROD to catch up with the ideal vertical approach path while turning final while watching the other jet.
28L LOC transmitting so followed that, back to Vref+5 early to avoid overtaking the A320 on 28R but end up alongside.
Below 1000ft the (local) A320 flying visually on the right wanders off the centreline towards us. TCAS TA goes bananas but RA inhibited below 800ft. We quickly discuss going around before he corrects back towards his centreline. Look forwards to see four whites on the PAPI's (I had been concentrating looking right at the VERY close A320 for approx 10 secs).
Reduce thrust, set 1000ft ROD, regain profile by 200ft, flare and touch down.

All this after a ten hour flight when it's past 4am on my body clock. How nice it would have been to fly a nice lazy ILS instead.

It's an accident waiting to happen, and it did."

Copied from another message board. Just another persons perspective.

< SteveC edited 1514Z to indicate a quotation, not a first person narration. >
 
I was somewhat surprised at the burn damage to the fuselage considering the prompt fire and rescue response. I hope the propagation of the fire will be well studied. Thankfully, it looks like all the hatches opened. The death toll could have been greater if all these escape paths were precluded.
 
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