Kobe Crash

mshunter

Well-Known Member
These helicopter companies just don't get it. I live about 6 miles from where Kobe's helicopter crashed. One of the charter helicopters just flew over my house, about 500ft above, scud running through the valley. It's foggy and overcast right now with the marine layer. They just don't get it. He looked to be headed to KCMA (northwest), following the 118Fwy.

KVNY (VAN NUYS , CA, US) observed 1451 UTC 10 May 2021
Temperature:16.7°C (62°F)
Dewpoint:11.7°C (53°F) [RH = 72%]
Pressure (altimeter):29.89 inches Hg (1012.3 mb)
[Sea-level pressure: 1011.6 mb]
Winds:from the SE (130 degrees) at 6 MPH (5 knots; 2.6 m/s)
Visibility:10 or more miles (16+ km)
Ceiling:1900 feet AGL
Clouds:scattered clouds at 1300 feet AGL
broken clouds at 1900 feet AGL
broken clouds at 2900 feet

KCMA (CAMARILLO , CA, US) observed 1525 UTC 10 May 202
Temperature: 16.7°C (62°F
Dewpoint: 12.8°C (55°F) [RH = 78%
Pressure (altimeter): 29.91 inches Hg (1013.0 mb
Winds: from the SSW (210 degrees) at 7 MPH (6 knots; 3.1 m/s
Visibility: 6 miles (10 km
Ceiling: 800 feet AG
Clouds: broken clouds at 800 feet AG
overcast cloud deck at 1200 feet AG
Weather: HZ (haze)
 
I was working a 182 that was scud running with ceilings of about 2000’ reported at the closest airport, in an area with an MVA of 3000’. Then he reported he was in IMC and also not IFR qualified. My first thought was “well that’s what you get for being stupid.”

Wow, just wow....should have marked the tapes and sent it to the FAA....
 
The above hourlys are not particularly unsafe for helo operations, however that is weather within the airfield area. If this is prevailing weather, it can be done safely in a helicopter SVFR, but it has to be done diligently and smartly. Meaning, one has to know the area and it’s weather anomalies, such as avoiding or being extremely careful of valleys and other areas that can quickly box one in, as well as always having an escape heading to visual conditions and a landing site at all times. One also has to know the terrain and obstacles along the route and for a few miles either side of it. If one doesn’t have these, then one risks doing exactly what the Kobe pilot did: getting himself into a square corner and not realizing it until it is too late. Even with Kobe’s pilot, that square corner wasn’t an impossible one and shouldn’t have been difficult at all to get out of…..had he maintained currency and ability in instrument flying, which he did not. Because his helicopter was more than capable. But as capable as it is, it can’t do anything to help a pilot who is not capable.

However, even with all of the above mitigations, one then has to answer the most important question: is this particular flight/mission of such great importance/priority/critical need, that the above mitigations are worth the risk? With nearly all operations that have no life safety component to them, that answer will be a no.

And doing any of this in a fixed wing, which has none of the flexibility of a helicopter, is definitely a no. Not unless merely departing SVFR to get to a known and confirmed VFR area that is close. And even that is risky.
 
I was working a 182 that was scud running with ceilings of about 2000’ reported at the closest airport, in an area with an MVA of 3000’. Then he reported he was in IMC and also not IFR qualified. My first thought was “well that’s what you get for being stupid.”
Several years later, the very serious but oddly soothing voice of an AOPA Accident Analysis narration begins.
 
I was working a 182 that was scud running with ceilings of about 2000’ reported at the closest airport, in an area with an MVA of 3000’. Then he reported he was in IMC and also not IFR qualified. My first thought was “well that’s what you get for being stupid.”
One night I was flying with a student in some fairly low IFR, everyone but 1 guy was on an instrument flight plan but this one guy seemed to think the weather was just fine. I don't think ATC was buying that, they queried a couple of planes around him asking for flight conditions. I guess the pilot was picking up what they were putting down, after the 4th call saying IMC he called up and asked for an IFR clearance.
 
I was working a 182 that was scud running with ceilings of about 2000’ reported at the closest airport, in an area with an MVA of 3000’. Then he reported he was in IMC and also not IFR qualified. My first thought was “well that’s what you get for being stupid.”
What is ground level?
 
The above hourlys are not particularly unsafe for helo operations, however that is weather within the airfield area. If this is prevailing weather, it can be done safely in a helicopter SVFR, but it has to be done diligently and smartly. Meaning, one has to know the area and it’s weather anomalies, such as avoiding or being extremely careful of valleys and other areas that can quickly box one in, as well as always having an escape heading to visual conditions and a landing site at all times. One also has to know the terrain and obstacles along the route and for a few miles either side of it. If one doesn’t have these, then one risks doing exactly what the Kobe pilot did: getting himself into a square corner and not realizing it until it is too late. Even with Kobe’s pilot, that square corner wasn’t an impossible one and shouldn’t have been difficult at all to get out of…..had he maintained currency and ability in instrument flying, which he did not. Because his helicopter was more than capable. But as capable as it is, it can’t do anything to help a pilot who is not capable.

However, even with all of the above mitigations, one then has to answer the most important question: is this particular flight/mission of such great importance/priority/critical need, that the above mitigations are worth the risk? With nearly all operations that have no life safety component to them, that answer will be a no.

And doing any of this in a fixed wing, which has none of the flexibility of a helicopter, is definitely a no. Not unless merely departing SVFR to get to a known and confirmed VFR area that is close. And even that is risky.

When you're transiting through mountain passes they are. This part of SoCal is chock full of hills, valleys and passes. That's exactly what got Kobe's helicopter. They tried to get through the pass at Calabasas, and didn't. Santa Susana Pass tops out at just shy of 3000msl. It was covered this morning, I can see it from my house. I live at about the first A in S(a)nta Susana Pass on the LAX TAC chart. They were skimming the bottom of the marine layer. 20210510_140856.jpgScreenshot_20210510-140328.png

Edit: Earlier this morning, I couldn't see the pass. That picture is from this afternoon.
 
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When you're transiting through mountain passes they are. This part of SoCal is chock full of hills, valleys and passes. That's exactly what got Kobe's helicopter. They tried to get through the pass at Calabasas, and didn't. Santa Susana Pass tops out at just shy of 3000msl. It was covered this morning, I can see it from my house. I live at about the first A in S(a)nta Susana Pass on the LAX TAC chart. They were skimming the bottom of the marine layer. View attachment 59057View attachment 59058

Edit: Earlier this morning, I couldn't see the pass. That picture is from this afternoon.

Thats why I mentioned that a few sentences in on my reply there. Coming right under diligently and smartly, is understanding the terrain and what kind to avoid.

Ultimately, it comes down to the criticality of the mission, which as I mention, is often not worth the risk being undertaken.
 
I've never brought this up before but Hunter knows what I'm talking about.

The canyons around where Kobe was killed have a micro climate of their own that can be different every time you round a corner or cross a hill. Camarillo can be 300' and a 1/2 mile. Six miles away, on the other side of a low ridge, Santa Paula is clear and 20. That's pretty much normal in that area. You don't get that in the Plains States.

I was driving on the 101 to Santa Barbara one morning. Been driving for over an hour without issue. Low OVC with a little fog but the freeway was doing 70+ MPH. I came over a hill east of Camarillo and the car windows all fogged up in 3 to 5 seconds. I couldn't get the defrosters on quick enough. As a pilot I could really appreciate what had happened.
 
I've never brought this up before but Hunter knows what I'm talking about.

The canyons around where Kobe was killed have a micro climate of their own that can be different every time you round a corner or cross a hill. Camarillo can be 300' and a 1/2 mile. Six miles away, on the other side of a low ridge, Santa Paula is clear and 20. That's pretty much normal in that area.

I was driving on the 101 to Santa Barbara one morning. Been driving for over an hour without issue. Low OVC with a little fog but the freeway was doing 70+ MPH. I came over a hill east of Camarillo and the car windows all fogged up in 3 to 5 seconds. I couldn't get the defrosters on quick enough. As a pilot I could really appreciate what had happened.

agreed. And these are the kinds of things a pilot must be aware of when considering the weather portion of a launch decision. Normally, helo pilots are locals in the area they are flying and are generally familiar with their areas, but that’s not always the case, and is one of the big factors to e considered indeed.
 
MikeD said:
Because his helicopter was more than capable.

I’m glad you made this point, because it seems like at the end of the day the rotorcraft community has a cultural problem with instrument flying, and I’m curious if you’ve run into it as a fixed wing to rotor wing conversion?

Modern multi-turbine helicopters (including military) have an over abundance of the necessary bells and whistles for safe IFR flight including glass cockpit, FMS, SAS, helipilot, etc... and the lowest common denominator is the human in the seat, their lack of instrument currency and/or cultural reluctance to pick up a pop-up IFR clearance instead of taking the more familiar option of heading up a box canyon in degrading SVFR conditions.

1620696368170.jpeg


Especially in Southern CA, where most of the time the “marine layer” advection fog is only 500-1000 ft thick, it’s a pretty trivial task to: pick up a pop-up clearance, climb through a very thin layer, cruise on top clear of all the scary terrain, shoot an approach through said thin layer again to an airport on the other side of the scary terrain, pop out below the layer and cancel and proceed VFR or SVFR to wherever you were originally going. Ok well trivial except you’re flying a dynamically unstable machine that’s constantly trying to kill you, but hopefully the SAS and the helipilot help a little bit with that part. :)

There are plenty of COPTER TACAN approaches around my parts too, so I know the military rotor wing community flies instruments somewhat regularly. Is it the civilian corporate/HEMS world that is hesitant? Or everybody since actual IMC time is just so rare? Do you have any thoughts on positive steps that could be taken to jog pilots to revert to IFR when the links in the chain are starting to align towards a CFIT accident?

This topic seems to have a lot in common with the Alaska fixed wing CFIT accident threads over the years, and I’m also curious if any lessons learned from that community might also be applicable here?
 

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I’m glad you made this point, because it seems like at the end of the day the rotorcraft community has a cultural problem with instrument flying, and I’m curious if you’ve run into it as a fixed wing to rotor wing conversion?

Modern multi-turbine helicopters (including military) have an over abundance of the necessary bells and whistles for safe IFR flight including glass cockpit, FMS, SAS, helipilot, etc... and the lowest common denominator is the human in the seat, their lack of instrument currency and/or cultural reluctance to pick up a pop-up IFR clearance instead of taking the more familiar option of heading up a box canyon in degrading SVFR conditions.

View attachment 59063

Especially in Southern CA, where most of the time the “marine layer” advection fog is only 500-1000 ft thick, it’s a pretty trivial task to: pick up a pop-up clearance, climb through a very thin layer, cruise on top clear of all the scary terrain, shoot an approach through said thin layer again to an airport on the other side of the scary terrain, pop out below the layer and cancel and proceed VFR or SVFR to wherever you were originally going. Ok well trivial except you’re flying a dynamically unstable machine that’s constantly trying to kill you, but hopefully the SAS and the helipilot help a little bit with that part. :)

There are plenty of COPTER TACAN approaches around my parts too, so I know the military rotor wing community flies instruments somewhat regularly. Is it the civilian corporate/HEMS world that is hesitant? Or everybody since actual IMC time is just so rare? Do you have any thoughts on positive steps that could be taken to jog pilots to revert to IFR when the links in the chain are starting to align towards a CFIT accident?

This topic seems to have a lot in common with the Alaska fixed wing CFIT accident threads over the years, and I’m also curious if any lessons learned from that community might also be applicable here?

you have to remember a few things that are different from airplane to helo ops. For one, most light helos are not IMC certificated. The helo itself has the appropriate navigational equipment to fly IFR, just not fly in IMC. Hence, many of these senior pilot light helos, the pilots don’t bother maintaining instrument flying currency, even though it’s prudent to do so, but not required.

Medium and large helicopters, generally crew helicopters but some single pilots also, which are IMC certificated, those pilots will generally maintain the currency and should, even if their operation does not have allowances for other than VFR

insofar as climbing though weather, that works when going from airport to airport. But many helicopters arent doing that, they’re going from an airport to an off-airport location, or an off-airport location to another off-airport location. Places where there aren’t instrument approaches to. Once you get above the weather or start flying airways, if there’s no way to descend VMC down to the ground, then you’ve lost the ability to get to your destination oftentimes. Hence why helos have the ability to have reduced SVFR mins than airplanes. But the above planning considerations I talked about, still apply in terms of go/no-go.
 
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