KMSP Approach and Center Controllers

Autothrust Blue said:
This is otherwise known as basic airmanship.

High energy visuals are only sort of part of our program here, if I have anything to do with it, you'll do one on both LOFT days.
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Even a Cherokee 6 does a better slam dunk if you slow it level and throw out the flaps before you head downhill.
 
genot said:
Reduce speed to 170... sigh ... can you increase back to 190, no, wait slowest practical. Can you do 160? You're following a special snow flake / I'm sharing a final with the D team.
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"Give us a heading and also we're min fuel"
 
Ozelot said:
These are coming here at MSP, we have them already but aren't published. They go online at the end of this month actually. RNAV Y approaches I think they are called. If you're the first guy in line I'll clear you for the RNAV Y 12L when your 17k feet 30 miles east of the airport and watch your plane fly you to the runway. the BLUEM STAR ties into the ILS 35 approach already so when someone checks on with the ATIS on that particular STAR, I've said, cleared converging ILS 35 approach, it is awesome when it's slow enough to let it happen.
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That'll be oh so nice.

I never quite understood why the new MSP RNAV stars didn't tie in to the ILS for the 12/30s? Makes more sense now that there are approach transitions planned.

I love going into LAX on the SEAVU and getting cleared for an approach 70 miles out. Dial in 1900 feet for LIMMA, check that you're in VNAV, sit back and watch the magic happen.

Makes life nice and simple, at least for me, and that's what matters most. :-)
 
woutlaw said:
That'll be oh so nice.

I never quite understood why the new MSP RNAV stars didn't tie in to the ILS for the 12/30s? Makes more sense now that there are approach transitions planned.

I love going into LAX on the SEAVU and getting cleared for an approach 70 miles out. Dial in 1900 feet for LIMMA, check that you're in VNAV, sit back and watch the magic happen.

Makes life nice and simple, at least for me, and that's what matters most. :)
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You're assuming that approach controllers will use them. Houston has those same transitions and will cut you out for vectors in order to save an aircraft 3 seconds instead of just letting folks fly the transition.
 
jtrain609 said:
You're assuming that approach controllers will use them. Houston has those same transitions and will cut you out for vectors in order to save an aircraft 3 seconds instead of just letting folks fly the transition.
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Reaching up and pressing HDG is such work.

Although I would agree that the premise of reducing control instructions by having us all dumb and happy in LNAV/VNAV PATH and jetting over to the approach with nobody intervening is pretty damn cool.
 
jtrain609 said:
You're assuming that approach controllers will use them. Houston has those same transitions and will cut you out for vectors in order to save an aircraft 3 seconds instead of just letting folks fly the transition.
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Well, there is that. But everything about Houston is strange. :-)

That being said, no way, no how, could I do a controllers job. I have to look at my hands to tell left from right. Put me in front of a scope and.... oh boy. Respect.
 
UAL747400 said:
They were the only facility I worked with where the controller actually had the map in front of them.
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And your maps are easy to figure out! You should see some of the crap that comes over the fax! Hhah

You guys still in town? I need help emptying my beer fridge and eating up all my hamburger.
 
Ozelot said:
And your maps are easy to figure out! You should see some of the crap that comes over the fax! Hhah

You guys still in town? I need help emptying my beer fridge and eating up all my hamburger.
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I couldn't believe how much MSP controllers trusted us vs a lot of smaller areas. We'd have arrivals coming in 1000 ft above us, no issue. I also liked how we got a 15-20min heads up for when rush hour was going to stop so we could relocate into position to get the more intrusive flight plans out of the way. I was proud of the home town team!
 
Autothrust Blue said:
Reaching up and pressing HDG is such work.

Although I would agree that the premise of reducing control instructions by having us all dumb and happy in LNAV/VNAV PATH and jetting over to the approach with nobody intervening is pretty damn cool.
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Going into HDG mode isn't the problem, it's when the controller waits too long to give us our approach clearance, and then has us intercept at a 45 degree angle, and then the airplane tries to roll over. when it captures the glideslope.

LNAV/VNAV to an autotuned ILS is a thing of beauty, which is why things work so well in LAX.
 
Ozelot said:
And your maps are easy to figure out! You should see some of the crap that comes over the fax! Hhah

You guys still in town? I need help emptying my beer fridge and eating up all my hamburger.
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That was in 2011 for me. I think MSP is on Pictometry's yearly project list though. I was with Air America. I don't know who all covers their stuff now.
 
jtrain609 said:
You're assuming that approach controllers will use them. Houston has those same transitions and will cut you out for vectors in order to save an aircraft 3 seconds instead of just letting folks fly the transition.
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Honest question. I routinely take pilots off the RNAV STAR to a fix on the Loc to short cut them five miles. More trouble than its worth?
 
woutlaw said:
Well, there is that. But everything about Houston is strange. :)

That being said, no way, no how, could I do a controllers job. I have to look at my hands to tell left from right. Put me in front of a scope and.... oh boy. Respect.
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I found the Air Traffic Manager fellas! I kid I kid.
 
genot said:
Honest question. I routinely take pilots off the RNAV STAR to a fix on the Loc to short cut them five miles. More trouble than its worth?
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It depends.

In the plane I'm flying now (EMB-170/190)? For my money, it's easier for us if we're just left on the transition and cleared for the ILS off that transition, and hopefully well out from where we join so we can simply set our bottom altitude as the marker. If that clearance comes too late, the plane captures the last altitude we're assigned, and the plane starts to level off, and by the time you give us an approach clearance to continue down, we're high and have to work to get down.

In the last plane I was flying (EMB-145)? It's easier to take the heading, switch into green needles, and wait for the approach clearance.

The new whip is much more automated than the old whip.

But the fundamental problem is when the approach clearance comes too late in the game, and that's what the transitions to ILS approaches seem to solve from my end. If we're inside 0.2nm from the LOC course (this wouldn't happen in your TRACON, but I've had it happen), or if it's too steep of an intercept angle laterally (DTW), or if we're above the GS by the time the approach clearance comes, then it's buttholes and elbows trying to dirty up the plane, slow down and get down to the GS. In the EMB-145 it's no problem at all, but the new rig is a whole lot slicker. That's where having an early approach clearance and LNAV/VNAV makes this really easy, because the plane can do everything you'd normally do for us in giving vectors.

The other side of the coin is that we're not operating in a vacuum, and if you need to cut off those 5 miles to make the sequence work, then we're going to get the 5 miles cut out and we'll find a way to make it work or go around if we can't.

In the end, your facility does an excellent job in making this work, but you guys also have plenty of airspace to play with and you're great about establishing us on a nice, long final from 8,000' with clearly defined speed reductions that we can plan for when you're landing east/west.

Clear as mud?
 
jtrain609 said:
It depends.

In the plane I'm flying now (EMB-170/190)? For my money, it's easier for us if we're just left on the transition and cleared for the ILS off that transition, and hopefully well out from where we join so we can simply set our bottom altitude as the marker. If that clearance comes too late, the plane captures the last altitude we're assigned, and the plane starts to level off, and by the time you give us an approach clearance to continue down, we're high and have to work to get down.

In the last plane I was flying (EMB-145)? It's easier to take the heading, switch into green needles, and wait for the approach clearance.

The new whip is much more automated than the old whip.

But the fundamental problem is when the approach clearance comes too late in the game, and that's what the transitions to ILS approaches seem to solve from my end. If we're inside 0.2nm from the LOC course (this wouldn't happen in your TRACON, but I've had it happen), or if it's too steep of an intercept angle laterally (DTW), or if we're above the GS by the time the approach clearance comes, then it's buttholes and elbows trying to dirty up the plane, slow down and get down to the GS. In the EMB-145 it's no problem at all, but the new rig is a whole lot slicker. That's where having an early approach clearance and LNAV/VNAV makes this really easy, because the plane can do everything you'd normally do for us in giving vectors.

The other side of the coin is that we're not operating in a vacuum, and if you need to cut off those 5 miles to make the sequence work, then we're going to get the 5 miles cut out and we'll find a way to make it work or go around if we can't.

In the end, your facility does an excellent job in making this work, but you guys also have plenty of airspace to play with and you're great about establishing us on a nice, long final from 8,000' with clearly defined speed reductions that we can plan for when you're landing east/west.

Clear as mud?
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Appears as I thought. Newer Jets prefer to stay on the arrival. Onset especially Rjs not so much.

Not at Houston though. I know three controllers from there however.
 
jtrain609 said:
Going into HDG mode isn't the problem, it's when the controller waits too long to give us our approach clearance, and then has us intercept at a 45 degree angle, and then the airplane tries to roll over. when it captures the glideslope.

LNAV/VNAV to an autotuned ILS is a thing of beauty, which is why things work so well in LAX.
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Don't let it do that, then.
 
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