KLGB Class C Proposal

[ETAV8R]

For those of you who are in SoCal and would like to attend a meeting to discuss a potential change of Long Beach Airport airspace it will be held tomorrow night. I went to this evenings meeting and found it to be very educational. Unfortunately the map of the proposed airspace change is not yet available online so you are not privy to the horror that is being put forth.

"Proposal to Establish Class C Airspace around Long Beach Airport & Revise SNA Class C Airspace"
Topic: Meeting is planned to solicit comments from airmen on these proposed airspace changes.
On June 23, 2010 at 6:00 PM
Location:
Holiday Inn
2640 North Lakewood Blvd.
Long Beach, CA 90815

 

[Bernoulli Fan]

It's been a couple of years since I flew in SoCal, so I actually forgot that LGB was not Class C already. I certainly believe they're busy enough, but I bet I know what you mean when you mention the horror of the congested airspace coming.

 

[mshunter]

Honestly, the only thing that would change if it went to a Class C would be a designation of it. And maybe they'd finally get rid of Todd!

 

[The Gardener]

Honestly, the only thing that would change if it went to a Class C would be a designation of it. And maybe they'd finally get rid of Todd!

That could be the negotiating point. Dump todd, and you can do anything you want.

Seriously though, I would like to see a proposal of what the airspace will look like. I'm not entirely opposed to it, I just don't want it to eat our practice area!

 

[ETAV8R]

Honestly, the only thing that would change if it went to a Class C would be a designation of it. And maybe they'd finally get rid of Todd!

Untrue. With the currently proposed area much will change.

...Seriously though, I would like to see a proposal of what the airspace will look like. I'm not entirely opposed to it, I just don't want it to eat our practice area!

That is just what will happen. The airspace begins at the northwest where the 91 FWY and the 110 FWY intersect. Then move down the 110 FWY to Point Fermin. From Point Fermin the airspace goes east along the breakwater to the LAX 135R. Follow the LAX 135R to the southeast to the SNA Class C just where the LAX Mode C arc comes from the coast. Moving inland up to the SNA Class C inner ring and follow that to the north and the SLI 120R. Moving northwest along the SLI 120R to the SLI VOR then north along the SLI 355R to the 91 FWY and then west along the 91 to the 110. There you have it with different floors ranging from 1500 and 2400 with the roof of the proposed Class C mostly at 3400 except to the south near the SNA Class C where the LGB roof will move to 5400.

Hopefully I have described it well enough for anyone to plot it out on a chart. The proposal puts it into different sectors labeled A, B, C, D, and E. A will be in the primary airport area, B is the northwest sector, C is down near the harbor, D is south along the coast near Emmy/Eva. E is to the southeast bordering SNA Class C.

The proposed LGB Class C will move the coastal training area near the harbor down below 2400. Of course you can train in the aerobatic box off Palos Verdes. Now most of the time there isn't that much aerobatic training going on there. I did a lot of my training out off PV. With the proposal much more flight training would be condensed in this area. At the North/Northwest a pilot could possibly find themselves with a lot of company near compton or traffic entering/exiting the LAX SFRA.

There are many arguments against this proposal and the main argument for it being JetBlue and their TCAS alerts. Unfortunately when a local legacy captain asked JB for their TCAS data JB refused. Under the Freedom Of Information Act this CA was able to get all the TCAS data for the state and then did a breakdown for JB at or near the KLGB D airspace which did not equal the stated number of occurences from JB.

Please attend the meeting this eveing if you have any interest in what may or may not happen with the KLGB airspace.

 

[crfguy51]

JB pilots think LGB is dangerous. Interesting to hear that tidbit about the company BS'ing the mount of TCAS reports.

 

[Roger, Roger]

JB pilots think LGB is dangerous. Interesting to hear that tidbit about the company BS'ing the mount of TCAS reports.

Too bad velocipede isn't still here to complain about LGB and how dangerous all those darn little airplane drivers are and how ex-military guys are the only ones who should be allowed in airline cockpits, and for that matter the only ones who should be allowed to fly at all.

 

[mshunter]

Untrue. With the currently proposed area much will change.

Maybe I shouldn't have been so "off the cuff" but I figured most would see the sarcasm in my post without adding the sarcasm tag. Cody sure did. I personally think LGB should be a class C airport. There is simply too much traffic that goes in and out of there for it to be otherwise. Look into this thread and hear the TCAS reports. Having a practice area right next to a busy airport like that is asking for trouble. I've been in and out of LGB more times than I can count, and everytime it's super busy, and with the spegehtti bowl of intersecting runways and taxiways, it's very easy to screw something up. Class C would do wonders for that place, and hopefully get rid of Todd.

 

[ETAV8R]

...There is simply too much traffic that goes in and out of there for it to be otherwise. Look into this thread and hear the TCAS reports. Having a practice area right next to a busy airport like that is asking for trouble. I've been in and out of LGB more times than I can count, and everytime it's super busy, and with the spegehtti bowl of intersecting runways and taxiways, it's very easy to screw something up. Class C would do wonders for that place, and hopefully get rid of Todd.

What data are you referring to which would lead you to belive there is too much traffic? Annual pax enplanements? GA traffic? Either way there are only guidelines per the FAA regarding a change of airspace not laws or set standards. LGB barely meets some, not all, of the guidelines for an airspace redesign.

So limiting the practice area which is to the north of the approach path for RWY 30 will make things safer? You will have much more condensed training in a smaller area. That in now way sounds safer to me.

The whole basin needs a redesign not a bandaid at LGB. Class C would do nothing to the "spegehtti bowl" of runways. I began my training in Class C at SNA and found the communications to be much more daunting than the runway layout at LGB as a student. Pilots and students do need to be very smart and aware when negotiating LGB on the ground. How often have you used the 34/16s? Please come to the meeting tonight so you can make an educated decision about the proposal. Heck if you want to argue for the Class C make a presentation and let the crowd have it.

 

[The Gardener]

Maybe I shouldn't have been so "off the cuff" but I figured most would see the sarcasm in my post without adding the sarcasm tag. Cody sure did. I personally think LGB should be a class C airport. There is simply too much traffic that goes in and out of there for it to be otherwise. Look into this thread and hear the TCAS reports. Having a practice area right next to a busy airport like that is asking for trouble. I've been in and out of LGB more times than I can count, and everytime it's super busy, and with the spegehtti bowl of intersecting runways and taxiways, it's very easy to screw something up. Class C would do wonders for that place, and hopefully get rid of Todd.

In my 8 years I've never seen two meatballs encounter one another while flying around the noodles. It all works out nicely. It gets close sometimes but the pilots and controllers are careful, and keep the marinara at a safe level at all times.

Regards,
A Meatball

 

[Bernoulli Fan]

What data are you referring to which would lead you to belive there is too much traffic? Annual pax enplanements? GA traffic? Either way there are only guidelines per the FAA regarding a change of airspace not laws or set standards. LGB barely meets some, not all, of the guidelines for an airspace redesign.

I don't know if the current proposal is the best option, but anyone who has flown into LGB should be in favor of making it Class C in general, I would think. I don't need to see any data to remember 10-minute long ATIS reports, leagues of only mildly English proficient student pilots, and a cluster every time JB comes in. An approach service to organize everyone farther out could only help, IMO. Maybe the practice area should move southeast along the coast 20 miles to Dana Point.

 

[The Gardener]

Here it is.

 

[ETAV8R]

I don't know if the current proposal is the best option, but anyone who has flown into LGB should be in favor of making it Class C in general, I would think. I don't need to see any data to remember 10-minute long ATIS reports, leagues of only mildly English proficient student pilots, and a cluster every time JB comes in. An approach service to organize everyone farther out could only help, IMO. Maybe the practice area should move southeast along the coast 20 miles to Dana Point.

Your comment about ATIS length is funny. Class C will not effect the length of the ATIS at all. I worked in airport operations at LGB and it is a complex airport and requires extensive ATIS for various reasons. The construction and airport improvement projects require pilots be made aware of certain items. Most of the current ATIS has to do with the shortened length of 25L. This is directly related to approach slope protected area and the construction equipment staging area just east of the approach end of 25L. Have you flown into SNA lately? It is Class C and also has a lengthy ATIS.

Moving the practice area south 20 miles is your remedy? I think not. Perhaps you forgot the sarcasm tag.

 

[mshunter]

Your comment about ATIS length is funny. Class C will not effect the length of the ATIS at all. I worked in airport operations at LGB and it is a complex airport and requires extensive ATIS for various reasons. The construction and airport improvement projects require pilots be made aware of certain items. Most of the current ATIS has to do with the shortened length of 25L. This is directly related to approach slope protected area and the construction equipment staging area just east of the approach end of 25L. Have you flown into SNA lately? It is Class C and also has a lengthy ATIS.

Moving the practice area south 20 miles is your remedy? I think not. Perhaps you forgot the sarcasm tag.

Look, I'm all for a close practice area, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. With the location of LGB, it makes it difficult for a flight training enviroment. SNA to the south, LAX to the north, hemmed in by bravo to the east, and the ocean to the west, it's just not feasible. I hate to say it, but if it happens, LGB is just going to have to deal with it. IMHO, with how busy that place can get, it should have happened a long time ago. Or, kick the 121 ops out. There is SNA a few minutes south, or LAX a few minutes north. Like I said, someone has to give up their cake.

 

[The Gardener]

Look, I'm all for a close practice area, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. With the location of LGB, it makes it difficult for a flight training enviroment. SNA to the south, LAX to the north, hemmed in by bravo to the east, and the ocean to the west, it's just not feasible. I hate to say it, but if it happens, LGB is just going to have to deal with it. IMHO, with how busy that place can get, it should have happened a long time ago. Or, kick the 121 ops out. There is SNA a few minutes south, or LAX a few minutes north. Like I said, someone has to give up their cake.

Dude. Where did you buy your compass?

 

[ETAV8R]

If it aint broke...
not talking about a compass here
I'm sure you bothered to attend tonights meeting.

 

[mshunter]

Dude. Where did you buy your compass?

Relatively speaking. Us Californians consider looking at the ocean as west, even though it's not really. Just look at the freeway system, your from here, you should know.

Oh, and I got it at Sporty's.:insane:

 

[The Gardener]

Relatively speaking. Us Californians consider looking at the ocean as west, even though it's not really. Just look at the freeway system, your from here, you should know.

Oh, and I got it at Sporty's.:insane:

just busting your chops. I normally tell my students during their first couple of lessons, "See that, That's actually south. Yeah, that part towards Catalina."

Odd thing is LAX is nearly directly west of LGB.

 

[Bernoulli Fan]

Moving the practice area south 20 miles is your remedy? I think not. Perhaps you forgot the sarcasm tag.

Didn't forget the sarcasm tag. I understand you personally do not want to fly farther to the practice area, but as mshunter said, if you want to fly LGB, that might be the way it is. Twenty miles is only 12 minutes in a 172 anyway. Get some oral quizzing or pilotage training in.

 

[inigo88]

Dana Point is 30 nm away. What about the practice area in La Habra (123.3 - below 4000) near Hwy 57? That's 15 nm away.

I was curious if the Malibu/Point Dume area below 5000 would be viable if you shot through the SFRA but that's also a 30 nm trip.

You've also got the offshore area between Redondo Beach and Palos Verdes Point between the 2400 ceiling of the Torrence Class D and the 5000 floor of the Class B, but it looks small and could piss off the TOA controllers if you're in a departure corridor.

Sorry if these are stupid suggestions. I haven't gotten a chance to fly GA in the LA basin yet but the airspace architecture has always intrigued me.

(FWIW, the practice area I flew to today was ~15 nm from my departure airport and it's a pretty short trip. However I get that you guys like the harbor area and want to keep it.)