KISN closed to UND

z987k said:
I've never flown around gfk, but I highly doubt it's as busy as the basin, where if you're not at the exact same altitude it's not even worth pointing out, and half the people aren't even talking to anyone. The point was, it's not just one airport, it's all of them, together, and the traffic isn't just in the pattern, or within 30 miles doing local. A bunch of people in Cherokees doing training is not the same environment at all.
Up in and around NYC it can be the same, flying vfr under the shelves and such.
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KCKN and KTVF can get very busy with 5 or 6 airplanes in holding over or near the field, dual and solo flights going into and out of, couple with practice area traffic. LA the NE corridor are on par with the KGFK area on a typical training day.
 
Dugie8 said:
it's not just lack of MX and high traffic, it's the combination of distance, no place for students to if they get stuck, etc. when the deck starts getting stacked against you, you take the conservative course of action.

There is nothing of note that KISN offers that restricting it robs anybody of anything.
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Fair enough, I certainly understand that especially in an operation the size of UND you have to err on the side of caution in things like that. Though I still have to think that with the number of airports within 300 miles of GFK it seems silly to single out ONE of them. If they are so concerned about stuff like that, perhaps a phrase in the FOM about considering the available resources at your airports of destination in case of a mechanical would be a more common sense approach.
 
Roger Roger said:
Fair enough, I certainly understand that especially in an operation the size of UND you have to err on the side of caution in things like that. Though I still have to think that with the number of airports within 300 miles of GFK it seems silly to single out ONE of them. If they are so concerned about stuff like that, perhaps a phrase in the FOM about considering the available resources at your airports of destination in case of a mechanical would be a more common sense approach.
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The SOPs do spell out which airports are approved and what an airport has to have to get approval. S2 service or greater, fuel etc. basic things. KISN was an airport that was on the list of approved airports, now you simply need approval to go as you would any other non "pre approved" airport.

These rules and SOPs aren't wrote up willy nilly. The folks in charge aren't stupid either. I may disagree with some of the broader view training philosophies but the attitude towards the compromise of safety and fulfilling training environment is well thought out and kept in good balance.
 
There are literally tent cities in Williston because of the lack of hotel rooms. I, for one, do not think it would be good business to allow a student to go there, potentially have a maintenance/weather issue, have him sleep on the couch in the FBO, then have him fly back to GFK (not the shortest XC, BTW) the next morning. And FYI, Grand Forks Tower was recently upgraded to the same level as SFO, and is due for another upgrade very shortly. With a fairly even mix of both VFR and IFR operations and the current lack of a useful radar in the tower cab, the airspace can get rather interesting. To claim that our students do not get experience in a busy terminal environment... that's just absurd. Come out here around lunch time on a clear VFR day after a week of no-fly due to weather.
 
FAYEV said:
There are literally tent cities in Williston because of the lack of hotel rooms. I, for one, do not think it would be good business to allow a student to go there, potentially have a maintenance/weather issue, have him sleep on the couch in the FBO, then have him fly back to GFK (not the shortest XC, BTW) the next morning. And FYI, Grand Forks Tower was recently upgraded to the same level as SFO, and is due for another upgrade very shortly. With a fairly even mix of both VFR and IFR operations and the current lack of a useful radar in the tower cab, the airspace can get rather interesting. To claim that our students do not get experience in a busy terminal environment... that's just absurd. Come out here around lunch time on a clear VFR day after a week of no-fly due to weather.
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GFK is a level 9 now? I know they were a 7 in 2010.
 
Dugie8 said:
I don't get it. I honestly don't get you people. Taking the conservative road is never a bad idea, ever. KISN is getting busy and doesn't have the ramp space, facilities or housing to deal with potential and foreseeable problems by allowing training flights to go there. Read the message, approval is available which will most likely result in a quick discussion of the mentioned factors and the student sent on their way. This isn't about busy traffic and the UND bubble its simply about reducing the risk that a student and training resources could be tied up without proper facilities when that risk can be effectively managed

We dont take the jet into strips less than 5500 feet without speaking to the CP or DO. It has nothing to do with our ability or experience and everything to do with risk management.

This constant rage against the machine a lot of people show is getting old. The invincible attitude will get you exactly nowhere.
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Yawn. I've been around the block in 135 -I haven't been doing this as long as most, but I've seen my share and know what I'm capable of, what I'm willing to do, and what I won't do. Sorry, but I am not a meat computer, nor am I invincible. I've seen enough airplanes auger in, lost enough friends where I know better. This circumstance does not really apply. Going into a busy uncontrolled airport isn't some "unnecessary" level of risk it's day to day ops. Having a dispatch office make the call for you doesn't teach risk management. You learn that through experience, mistakes, "close ones" and reading. Sorry, but this isn't about some perceived hazardous attitude, it's about training. "Young" (in terms of hours regardless of age) pilots require a certain amount seasoning before they can operate outside of their bubble, the wider you grow that bubble from the get go, the more likely the new applicant will be able to understand and adapt to rapidly varying and challenging situations. Just because it isn't how you would do it, doesn't mean it's "dangerous." Just because you don't accept that level of risk, doesn't mean it's dangerous. There in fact are more than few ways to skin a cat, and part of training is learning how to operate outside of the ordinary.
 
FAYEV said:
There are literally tent cities in Williston because of the lack of hotel rooms. I, for one, do not think it would be good business to allow a student to go there, potentially have a maintenance/weather issue, have him sleep on the couch in the FBO, then have him fly back to GFK (not the shortest XC, BTW) the next morning. And FYI, Grand Forks Tower was recently upgraded to the same level as SFO, and is due for another upgrade very shortly. With a fairly even mix of both VFR and IFR operations and the current lack of a useful radar in the tower cab, the airspace can get rather interesting. To claim that our students do not get experience in a busy terminal environment... that's just absurd. Come out here around lunch time on a clear VFR day after a week of no-fly due to weather.
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Yeah, I fly around the Dakotas all the time, I've seen busy, and this place ain't. Now, to be fair, I typically fly during off-peak hours, but, no, there is more traffic than some places, but Chicago, Seattle, anywhere on the East Coast, Dallas, or the LA Basin this place is most certainly not.
 
ppragman said:
Yeah, I fly around the Dakotas all the time, I've seen busy, and this place ain't. Now, to be fair, I typically fly during off-peak hours, but, no, there is more traffic than some places, but Chicago, Seattle, anywhere on the East Coast, Dallas, or the LA Basin this place is most certainly not.
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How's it compare to the outer point george rock Portland island lena point funnel on a sunny summer day at about 5 PM?
 
Roger Roger said:
How's it compare to the outer point george rock Portland island lena point funnel on a sunny summer day at about 5 PM?
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Not half as busy frankly. And Hoonah or Skagway with 4 or 5 airplanes all converging on the same runway at the same time is even more of a disaster. I don't think Williston will be an issue for them.
 
@ppragman-Alaska jet at Barlow inbound. Cherokee and sled from Hoonah over George Rock, Caravan and Navajo coming down the canal calling at Lena, nother sled and Cherokee over Portland from Gustavus, 4 Otters on floats from downtown for the pond, Ward Air not talking to anyone (and saying no more than 2 mumbled, indecipherable words when they do talk), someone from Skagway calling on the wrong tower frequency at the rifle range because they didn't listen to the whole ATIS, Cherokee and a 206 blasting up the valley for a glacier tour, weekend warriors talking to much and calling the wrong landmarks, helicopters EVERYWHERE....I can't wait for summer!
 
Roger Roger said:
@ppragman-Alaska jet at Barlow inbound. Cherokee and sled from Hoonah over George Rock, Caravan and Navajo coming down the canal calling at Lena, nother sled and Cherokee over Portland from Gustavus, 4 Otters on floats from downtown for the pond, Ward Air not talking to anyone (and saying no more than 2 mumbled, indecipherable words when they do talk), someone from Skagway calling on the wrong tower frequency at the rifle range because they didn't listen to the whole ATIS, Cherokee and a 206 blasting up the valley for a glacier tour, weekend warriors talking to much and calling the wrong landmarks, helicopters EVERYWHERE....I can't wait for summer!
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yep
 
ppragman said:
Yawn. I've been around the block in 135 -I haven't been doing this as long as most, but I've seen my share and know what I'm capable of, what I'm willing to do, and what I won't do. Sorry, but I am not a meat computer, nor am I invincible. I've seen enough airplanes auger in, lost enough friends where I know better. This circumstance does not really apply. Going into a busy uncontrolled airport isn't some "unnecessary" level of risk it's day to day ops. Having a dispatch office make the call for you doesn't teach risk management. You learn that through experience, mistakes, "close ones" and reading. Sorry, but this isn't about some perceived hazardous attitude, it's about training. "Young" (in terms of hours regardless of age) pilots require a certain amount seasoning before they can operate outside of their bubble, the wider you grow that bubble from the get go, the more likely the new applicant will be able to understand and adapt to rapidly varying and challenging situations. Just because it isn't how you would do it, doesn't mean it's "dangerous." Just because you don't accept that level of risk, doesn't mean it's dangerous. There in fact are more than few ways to skin a cat, and part of training is learning how to operate outside of the ordinary.
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x1000
 
ProudPilot said:
So going to ISN or MSP where there is no mx and sometimes no fuel is a bad idea for every flight. Yet they will still let you go there if you plan properly. They have a lot of contract and ppl students that don't think everything through. So, the blanket is there to keep everyone cosy.
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Aka - the big problem with these big-141 schools. Students need to learn to make their own blanket and how to keep cozy on their own like they will have to in the real world.
 
Cause you know, having a plane stuck at ISN wouldn't affect the three other people that were gonna use that airplane that day.

And the insurance costs of exchanging paint with another airplane because of an overcrowded ramp aren't a big deal, either.

And God Forbid the owner of the airplane puts limits on where that airplane should and should not be used.

Seriously folks, I'm all for risk-taking during training, but they have to be calculated, managed risks, not "Heyo! lets let our students go fly into an airport that's just as busy as this one during peak... but with half the runway capacity and no tower!"
 
HUSH

We are arguing with people that don't go to UND. Same thing if I were to complain that Delta is no long allowing mustaches. It's not my direct problem. I'll sign a petition but I don't work there. If you're from UND chime up. Otherwise...
hatereagle.jpg

I'm just as bad as everyone else here for adding to the argument.
 
Dugie8 said:
Don't be too fast to criticize. There where legitimate questions. Nothing wrong with that. It's the super pilots who know everything and think safety and operational continuity are for chumps.


---
I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?gioaph
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I like how you characterize any debate with the implied notion that everyone else is an unsafe idiot. This is not about operational continuity, that's not what I'm saying at all, more precisely what I'm getting at is that these guys need to learn. UND is already a pretty cloistered environment from the get go, clamping off opportunities to experience something challenging isn't exactly a good policy. If they're fundamentally worried about people getting stuck, then restrict it to summer operations so people don't get too cold - until further notice is a little excessive, and remember, it's just going to get busier in the summer.

Remember, learning to fly is about getting a variety of experience. The same, empty airports in North Dakota won't suffice. There's nothing unsafe about an uncontrolled field - even a busy one - it'd be good practice for the students to learn the value of situational awareness in the airport environment. I've heard the Sioux planes on freq. quite a bit in the last several months, a little variety never hurt anyone - nor do I think that the level of operations going on there are going to result in a plethora of mid airs.

In short, I'm not "hatin'" on UND (although the above poster is correct - haters are going to hate), rather I'm expressing a general displeasure at the restrictive nature of many flight school operations offices. Yes, there needs to be restrictions on pilots, however, saying "no!" doesn't teach those students anything. Going from CFI to CFI at the school, and saying, "alrighty, we've got issues with Williston right now, council your students and try to induce the epiphany in them where they realize that going there for training might be an excessive amount of risk." Just telling your students "no" doesn't teach them a God Dammed thing, they've gotta learn things on their own.
 
ERAU would never do anything like this. That's why its a far better school for anything aviation related than UND could ever wish to be.







:D
 
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