KIND control tower closed do to fire back in May

Corporate Pilot

Well-Known Member
I was up in KIND several months ago and they had smoke in the tower and evacuated it. We were #1 for departure at the time and I talked to departure and asked them about departing and they said standby. We waited about 20 minutes and the tower was back operational and we departed.
I have wondered what would have happened if I had told departure that I was going to depart. Then on the other radio used the tower freq and gave a traffic report that I was departing and did. They are Class C so all I had to do was make contact with departure right? I am betting the FAA would not have been happy.

Devils advocate here. At my home airport the tower is closed at night. When it is closed you state your intentions on the tower freq and depart or arrive. The tower at KIND was closed. As I stated I did not depart when the tower at KIND was closed just wondering if I could have departed VFR and picked up the clearance with departure?

Approach was still working it was just the tower that was down.
 
From @MikeD
1. The key is, if you're IFR, wouldn't you have needed to receive an IFR release? Same as if you were VFR from an uncontrolled field, you'd need a void-if-not-off-by time. In the IND case, you were in a position where you had neither., I would think.


You are probably right. We had picked up our clearance with KIND clearance. But since we had not been released could we not depart VFR and pick up the new clearance in the air? We were in a jet and going to KADS Part 91.
 
From @MikeD
1. The key is, if you're IFR, wouldn't you have needed to receive an IFR release? Same as if you were VFR from an uncontrolled field, you'd need a void-if-not-off-by time. In the IND case, you were in a position where you had neither., I would think.


You are probably right. We had picked up our clearance with KIND clearance. But since we had not been released could we not depart VFR and pick up the new clearance in the air? We were in a jet and going to KADS Part 91.

Good question. And if you were already #1 for takeoff, could TRACON have just landline'd tower and asked for permission to launch you and that they would accept you once airborne? Possibly. Maybe a liability issue they didn't want to accept?
 
Good question. And if you were already #1 for takeoff, could TRACON have just landline'd tower and asked for permission to launch you and that they would accept you once airborne? Possibly. Maybe a liability issue they didn't want to accept?

The problem was they could not landline the tower since there was no one there.

You talk about the liability issue. I remember several years ago going into DWH at night and most the runway lights were out on the west side of the runway. The tower told us to land at our own risk and we did. Maybe departure could have said depart at your own risk?
 
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The problem was they could not landline the tower since there was no one there.

Oh, in that case I could definitely see TRACON not wanting to release you due to liability, as they can't physically/visually see you. Granted, in an uncontrolled field situation that's moot; but in the unique situation you were in there, I could see it being a factor.

Interesting academic situation indeed, you had there.
 
Oh, in that case I could definitely see TRACON not wanting to release you due to liability, as they can't physically/visually see you. Granted, in an uncontrolled field situation that's moot; but in the unique situation you were in there, I could see it being a factor.

Interesting academic situation indeed, you had there.


If the delay had been longer I might have talked to departure more and worked somthing out.
 
If the tower is closed, doesn't the Class C airspace no longer apply? Therefore, I would think you could call the TRACON and get a release from an uncontrolled airport or tell them you're going to depart VFR and pick up your clearance in the air. If I was in the TRACON, I would've given you a release as if you were departing an uncontrolled airport, one in/one out mindset...
 
If the tower is closed, doesn't the Class C airspace no longer apply? Therefore, I would think you could call the TRACON and get a release from an uncontrolled airport or tell them you're going to depart VFR and pick up your clearance in the air. If I was in the TRACON, I would've given you a release as if you were departing an uncontrolled airport, one in/one out mindset...

You mean Class D no longer apply?

TRACON may not have wanted to do that, depending on how many planes were awaiting release. Had the delay been for much longer, I could see them working something out though.
 
If the tower is closed, doesn't the Class C airspace no longer apply? Therefore, I would think you could call the TRACON and get a release from an uncontrolled airport or tell them you're going to depart VFR and pick up your clearance in the air. If I was in the TRACON, I would've given you a release as if you were departing an uncontrolled airport, one in/one out mindset...


I don't know. Tower is closed but approace is open. Acording to the regs.


"Each aircraft must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility providing air traffic services prior to entering the airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within the airspace."

It does not say that I need a clearance. As long as I told departure what I was doning would I have busted a reg? VFR,
 
The surface area of the airport in class C is owned by the tower, the shelf is owned by the approach. You cannot clear an aircraft in another controller's airspace (or area of responsibility) without permission. Permission could be granted via landline coordination, or via a Letter of Agreement (If, then situation). Since KIND is a 24 hour tower (I am assuming), there would be no policy set forward for tower closures, OR perhaps there was but the controller was not familiar with it because it is not used often.
 
I don't know. Tower is closed but approace is open. Acording to the regs.


"Each aircraft must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility providing air traffic services prior to entering the airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within the airspace."

It does not say that I need a clearance. As long as I told departure what I was doning would I have busted a reg? VFR,

In this case there is no one providing services in that airspace. There is no general rule that automatically delegates authority to the approach control, it would be covered by a Letter of Agreement on the local level.
 
You mean Class D no longer apply?

TRACON may not have wanted to do that, depending on how many planes were awaiting release. Had the delay been for much longer, I could see them working something out though.

There was 1 or two airliners waiting. We were depating on the east run and they were departing to the north on the other runways
 
I am guessing that Class C still applied since approach and departure was still on the air. It is an interesting what if.

I doubt they have an LOA for the tower being down.
 
You mean Class D no longer apply?

TRACON may not have wanted to do that, depending on how many planes were awaiting release. Had the delay been for much longer, I could see them working something out though.
He said IND and I assume they are Class C not D airspace. So wouldn't it convert to Class G? The approach being open doesn't matter in this case. The tower being closed is all that matters and I believe that if the tower closes, there are no longer Class C services being provided.
 
He said IND and I assume they are Class C not D airspace. So wouldn't it convert to Class G? The approach being open doesn't matter in this case. The tower being closed is all that matters and I believe that if the tower closes, there are no longer Class C services being provided.

I don't know, but my local Class C airport has published procedures for when the tower is closed, I don't fly when the tower is closed, but I know they are there. If there are no published procedures and no contingency plan, it sounds to me like no one is departing. I would imagine that if an aircraft departed VFR and picked up an IFR clearance in the air, the pilot would have a good argument and probably not get violated, but I don't see a radar controller sitting in a dark room somewhere issuing takeoff clearances to IFR departures at a field where the tower was suddenly and unexpectedly in an ATC-0 state.

Lets not forget that the same radar controller may have just had to issue missed approaches to one or more aircraft who will now be unable to land IFR. Even if there is a contingency plan in place, the radar controller's workload may not have permitted any departures. One in and one out.
 
What could he get violated for? If there is no operational tower, there is no controlled surface area (and I believe no Class C). The radar controller would not issue takeoff clearances, but he could definitely give releases with assigned headings. Aircraft can still land IFR if the tower closes, but it's one IFR in/one IFR out at a time. I don't know what the weather was at the time. It's hard to imagine that IND would be so busy that they couldn't have permitted any departures for 20 minutes. Most likely, they didn't want the extra traffic/workload until the situation was further assessed.
 
The interesting part about this whole scenario is that the control tower rules are in part 91 for class G airspace. "For each airport having an operating control tower..." although class C regs only say "The ATC facility having jurisdiction over the airspace" so who has jurisdiction, tower or tracon?
 
What could he get violated for? If there is no operational tower, there is no controlled surface area (and I believe no Class C). The radar controller would not issue takeoff clearances, but he could definitely give releases with assigned headings. Aircraft can still land IFR if the tower closes, but it's one IFR in/one IFR out at a time. I don't know what the weather was at the time. It's hard to imagine that IND would be so busy that they couldn't have permitted any departures for 20 minutes. Most likely, they didn't want the extra traffic/workload until the situation was further assessed.

I'm at the academy right now in OKC and asked my instructor about this today. I forgot to mention this scenario at an up/down facility, but his response was cut a quick atis (last thing I'm doing if tower is on fire/smoke) and grab a handheld on the way out and keep working. The above quote is really the best answer.
 
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