fender_jag
Well-Known Member
Congrats, kellwolf!
Kellwolf's Pinnacle Updates
- Thread starter kellwolf
- Start date
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Shrouded in mystery once again. I did my jumpseat flights last week to observe the crews on the line. It was nice to see a lot of the stuff we learned put into practical application, even if I was lost during the ACARS stuff. 
Today I did my orientation stuff. Went through all the OE paperwork, made sure that was in order, made sure all my manuals and Jepps were up to date, learned how to check in and out on the computers, glanced over the current bidding system (pref bid is still a mystery to me, and it's also something I hear horror stories about), and learned how to do the airplane walkaround.
Right now, I'm waiting by the phone to hear back from scheduling about when my OE is going to be and who it's going to be scheduled with. Hopefully, my uniform will come in today or tomorrow. The uniform company lost the order, and it's been a fight over the last week to track it down.....
Today I did my orientation stuff. Went through all the OE paperwork, made sure that was in order, made sure all my manuals and Jepps were up to date, learned how to check in and out on the computers, glanced over the current bidding system (pref bid is still a mystery to me, and it's also something I hear horror stories about), and learned how to do the airplane walkaround.
Right now, I'm waiting by the phone to hear back from scheduling about when my OE is going to be and who it's going to be scheduled with. Hopefully, my uniform will come in today or tomorrow. The uniform company lost the order, and it's been a fight over the last week to track it down.....
OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
kellwolf said:
Let Me guess...Cintas? We had several problems with them and recently went with a new uniform provider. A lost order seems to be a minor problem. We had one guy (new hire) that did not get anything for 2 months, so he flew to CVG, went to the flight station and bought new stuff. And their sales people are a-holes too.
Anyway congrats on a job well done to get that far.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"even if I was lost during the ACARS stuff"
Your best bet with the ACARS is to see what functions the line guys use on a regular basis and get that down cold. Probably 75 percent of the stuff you can do with it you will never, or rarely, use.
When they put ACARS in the 727's in the mid-90's, I was a F/E. They sent us a manual and said "you're now officially trained".
At first I hated it. Once you figure it out, though, you'll love it.
Your best bet with the ACARS is to see what functions the line guys use on a regular basis and get that down cold. Probably 75 percent of the stuff you can do with it you will never, or rarely, use.
When they put ACARS in the 727's in the mid-90's, I was a F/E. They sent us a manual and said "you're now officially trained".
At first I hated it. Once you figure it out, though, you'll love it.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
For those of ya curious, I haven't fallen off the planet or quit. It was slow up until last Friday when I started IOE. The annoying thing (from a logistics standpoint) is that my IOE is based out of DTW while I am based out of MEM. So, I have to deadhead to DTW to get to my first leg.
First day, met my IOE captain (VERY cool and laid back guy, BTW) and went to the gate to go over the paperwork for the flight. I did the walkaround (which I learned in orientation back in MEM about a week prior), and climbed in to MY seat. Started learning what to do with the ACARS to set everything up, and then went though all the stuff I learned in the sim to get the beast rolling. First trip was to Lansing, MI from Detroit. So, my first leg ever in an RJ was flown at a Seminole-ish altitude of 8000 ft. I did the non-fly stuff on the first leg, but the leg back to DTW was mine. Nothing gets the blood pumping like sitting on the runway and hearing the captain say "Your controls."
Visual approach into DTW (of the three days on OE, ONE approach was an instrument approach), and the landing was....okay. The hardest part for me right now is in the flare and holding the damn center line.....
Took off out of DTW and overnighted in Moline, IL. Caught the hotel shuttle to the airport and flew back to DTW early the next morning. Then the fun began....
The flight TO Springfield, MO was pretty uneventful. It was the flight back that sucked. What should have been a 1.5 hour flight turned into an almost 3 hour flight. We were evaluating whether we should divert to Ft Wayne, Indiana for fuel when we finally got released from our second holding pattern. Yeah, SECOND. That was AFTER we were told to slow to "slowest possible speed" and given delaying vectors. Seems a t-storm rolled into DTW and decided to wreck our day. Good learning experience, though.
Stayed at a hotel in DTW and got up the next morning for the last day of the three day. First flight was to MDW, which the CA took the landing. My leg back to DTW, so I got some more landing practice. Better, but still needs a lot of work. Took off again and flew to Portland, Maine. Weather, not so good. ILS approach down to about 700-800 AGL with a (gasp) decent landing. Took off shortly after that, and hand flew up to about FL230. The check airman had a sense of humor and decided to remove my flight director at about 18,000, so I had a bit of raw data flying tossed in. So, yes you CAN fly this thing without the AP on.
Approach in DTW for the visual 3R, which was probably my worst landing....ever. It's one of those things I'll get eventually, but it's just ticking me off now. Managed to catch the next flight home to MEM.
I go back to DTW for a two day FRI-SAT with an overnight in CVG Fri, then hopefully I'll be done with IOE.
First day, met my IOE captain (VERY cool and laid back guy, BTW) and went to the gate to go over the paperwork for the flight. I did the walkaround (which I learned in orientation back in MEM about a week prior), and climbed in to MY seat.
Started learning what to do with the ACARS to set everything up, and then went though all the stuff I learned in the sim to get the beast rolling. First trip was to Lansing, MI from Detroit. So, my first leg ever in an RJ was flown at a Seminole-ish altitude of 8000 ft. I did the non-fly stuff on the first leg, but the leg back to DTW was mine. Nothing gets the blood pumping like sitting on the runway and hearing the captain say "Your controls."Visual approach into DTW (of the three days on OE, ONE approach was an instrument approach), and the landing was....okay. The hardest part for me right now is in the flare and holding the damn center line.....
Took off out of DTW and overnighted in Moline, IL. Caught the hotel shuttle to the airport and flew back to DTW early the next morning. Then the fun began....
The flight TO Springfield, MO was pretty uneventful. It was the flight back that sucked. What should have been a 1.5 hour flight turned into an almost 3 hour flight. We were evaluating whether we should divert to Ft Wayne, Indiana for fuel when we finally got released from our second holding pattern. Yeah, SECOND. That was AFTER we were told to slow to "slowest possible speed" and given delaying vectors. Seems a t-storm rolled into DTW and decided to wreck our day. Good learning experience, though.
Stayed at a hotel in DTW and got up the next morning for the last day of the three day. First flight was to MDW, which the CA took the landing. My leg back to DTW, so I got some more landing practice. Better, but still needs a lot of work. Took off again and flew to Portland, Maine. Weather, not so good. ILS approach down to about 700-800 AGL with a (gasp) decent landing. Took off shortly after that, and hand flew up to about FL230. The check airman had a sense of humor and decided to remove my flight director at about 18,000, so I had a bit of raw data flying tossed in. So, yes you CAN fly this thing without the AP on.
Approach in DTW for the visual 3R, which was probably my worst landing....ever. It's one of those things I'll get eventually, but it's just ticking me off now. Managed to catch the next flight home to MEM.
I go back to DTW for a two day FRI-SAT with an overnight in CVG Fri, then hopefully I'll be done with IOE.
deserteaglle
New Member
Now when you say bad landing...how bad we talkin'?
Like swervin' down the runway bad, or bouncin' a couple times bad?
Like swervin' down the runway bad, or bouncin' a couple times bad?
frog_flyer
FredFlyer
or flaring 8 feet off the ground in a 757 and when you finally BANG down on the ground a mask dispenser explodes as the lights flicker on and off?!
deserteaglle said:
It's very hard to bounce an CRJ (which is what I think is being flown here). When you get enough weight on the wheels to start a bounce the wing explodes and takes away all the lift.
No - there are 2 types of bad landings in the CRJ. Flare too high and run out of airspeed. Worse case you get the stick shaker (well worse case you get the pusher, I've heard rumors of that) and it hammers onto the runway. Don't flare at all and hammer it into the runway. I've done both - although so far I've never had the shaker.
What works for me? First of all you have to get used to the fact that the plane appears to be on a suicide mission when in the correct approach attitude, very nose down. At 100 ft I pull out a little power, at 50ft start to GENTLY flare and pull out the power so that at 20 feet you have no power left and you're in level pitch attitude through 10 feet and then it's just keep flaring till it rolls on. Early on I flared too high because it just looked all wrong. Later on I flared too late bcause I was over-compensating holding the nose down attitude. Oh yeh - once you get the flare right and have the right pitch attitude at 10 feet you'll over flare and balloon a few times, that goes away after a while as well
You'll get it - some people are born to land CRJs, for most of us it takes a little while.......
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Kell, sounds like your OE is going well. I got the airspeed klacker my first day, second leg. At 4000 feet. Yep you read that right! LOL. My first ever landing in the plane was absolutely beautiful, on runway 35 @ PHL (5400'). From then on it's been downhill! One thing about my OE instructor - he didn't really instruct in how to "land" per se, just let me do it. I wish he had given me a little more guidence.
About landing - I seemed to float a LONG way down the runway at first and landing on 26 in PHL (5000') you just can't do that. So I subscribe to the "pound it down" type of landing now unless there is a lot of runway available (8000'+). Then I use CFIse's technique to but you have to be careful - you can drive the mains onto the runway if you flare TOO much, too early. Plus with our typical ref speeds you're lucky if you touch down in the touchdown zone LOL. Add in a crosswind and its not the best technique IMO for landing, although it does produce "greasers".
I'll be honest, I just passed 400 hours or so in the airplane and I'm starting to actually get much more comfortable with it. One thing I recommend - start flying without the AP or FD on takeoff's and landings once you get a feel for the plane, typical pitch attitudes, etc. I'll go without the automation while ATC is still climbing/turning us on takeoff/climbout, then turn the autopilot/FD on once we get "direct XYZ" and on approach click it off when cleared for the approach.
About landing - I seemed to float a LONG way down the runway at first and landing on 26 in PHL (5000') you just can't do that. So I subscribe to the "pound it down" type of landing now unless there is a lot of runway available (8000'+). Then I use CFIse's technique to but you have to be careful - you can drive the mains onto the runway if you flare TOO much, too early. Plus with our typical ref speeds you're lucky if you touch down in the touchdown zone LOL. Add in a crosswind and its not the best technique IMO for landing, although it does produce "greasers".
I'll be honest, I just passed 400 hours or so in the airplane and I'm starting to actually get much more comfortable with it. One thing I recommend - start flying without the AP or FD on takeoff's and landings once you get a feel for the plane, typical pitch attitudes, etc. I'll go without the automation while ATC is still climbing/turning us on takeoff/climbout, then turn the autopilot/FD on once we get "direct XYZ" and on approach click it off when cleared for the approach.
wheelsup said:
Wel with the caveat that any landing you can walk away from is a good landing and a great landing is one where you can use the plane again, let me say...
I have used "my" technique on runway 35 at PHL in a significant crosswind, and with the exception that I dipped "below glideslope" to use all the runway the landing was a greaser and we were coasting before we got to the end of the runway. So while I agree, if it's floating get it on the ground, it won't stop any other way, I think the technique I described can produce reasonably short landings AND smooth landings as well.
On the other hand - whatever works, I'm no expert, within G limits and heading in the right direction is a good landing in my book (and many of my early landings would have barely made a passing grade using that criteria).
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
CFIse, good points. I agree, the short landings can be accomplished with the hold it off technique because your touchdown speed is so low and it has a very short rollout once you touchdown. We have a limitation where the TR's MUST be stowed at 80 knots unless you're gonna run out of runway (and aren't allowed above idle unless the runway is contaminated or <6,500'), so we don't have that additional stopping power that other RJ operators have, and have to plan accordingly.
I prefer on short runways to let it hit on the thousands. If you're hitting the thousands on 26/35 with your technique you've gotta be flaring over the river and significantly under the GS! I'm mainly concerned with not "scaring" the CA's on those short runways - most want it down no matter what. It's their butt on the line so the least I can do is get the thing down 
.
I prefer on short runways to let it hit on the thousands. If you're hitting the thousands on 26/35 with your technique you've gotta be flaring over the river and significantly under the GS
! I'm mainly concerned with not "scaring" the CA's on those short runways - most want it down no matter what. It's their butt on the line so the least I can do is get the thing down .
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Great tips! Thanks guys. Basically, I've been flaring too high and running out of a/s. A couple of landings, the OE captain commented that my flare looked great, though. A couple I didn't hold the nose wheel off long enough. Right now every fiber of my being is screaming "lawn dart!" on short final, though.
As far as the AP/FD, on about the third visual approach I realized the FD was distracting me more than helping me, so I just have it removed at this point and go for airpseed, vertical speed and pitch. We can have our TR out all the way to 60 knots, then they have to be at idle, so that helps a bit on the floating problem.
As far as the AP/FD, on about the third visual approach I realized the FD was distracting me more than helping me, so I just have it removed at this point and go for airpseed, vertical speed and pitch. We can have our TR out all the way to 60 knots, then they have to be at idle, so that helps a bit on the floating problem.
wheelsup said:
Well the brakes are remarkably good if you remember to step on them, but that TR limitation is killing you
. If I had a no TR below 80K and idle only on 35 than I'd probably have a different technique as well.....Yes I know - we shouldn't assume the TRs are going to cycle, but then we shouldn't assume the lift dump will work, or that the brakes will work, or that.... - at some point you've got to assume something......
My first landing in a CRJ in 2003 was a greaser. I then had one in 2004, 2005, and 2006 to finish off my RJ time. The ones in between were "adequate." Have you guys ever felt like your landing was so-so only to have a passenger say "great landing" after a flight? I would just smile and say, "thanks."
BTW, with about 2,000 hours in those things I did learn a few tips. You only need to be at/above glide until the MM. Basically, when over the approach lights (if there is nothing else in the way), you may begin reducing speed and altitude to put you at 50' and Vref DECELERATING over the threshold. This will take care of the float for you, and don't stop flying the plane (nose included) until you are at the gate/parking. And TR's aren't even necessary for most landings. Unlike what I am currently flying where TR's are a very nice stopping aid!
. The ones in between were "adequate." Have you guys ever felt like your landing was so-so only to have a passenger say "great landing" after a flight? I would just smile and say, "thanks."BTW, with about 2,000 hours in those things I did learn a few tips. You only need to be at/above glide until the MM. Basically, when over the approach lights (if there is nothing else in the way), you may begin reducing speed and altitude to put you at 50' and Vref DECELERATING over the threshold. This will take care of the float for you, and don't stop flying the plane (nose included) until you are at the gate/parking. And TR's aren't even necessary for most landings. Unlike what I am currently flying where TR's are a very nice stopping aid!
Mariano
Well-Known Member
Kell, I don't think I have ever congratulate you for all you achievements so here it is:nana2: , (better late than never I guess).
The thread is so inspiring and entertaining, and I found the last part (the discussion about landing techniques) utterly fascinating.
Thank you.
The thread is so inspiring and entertaining, and I found the last part (the discussion about landing techniques) utterly fascinating.
Thank you.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Okay, so off another trip for OE, this one was a 4 day-er. Unfortunately, it wasn't so good for practicing landings. Flying wise, it was great. I had 5 legs the first day (helped knock the rust of and try some new techniques), then things sorta dried up on the landings front for this trip. Although the 15 hour layover in YYZ didn't suck. Two leg day on Sat (one to MSP and one LONG assed one with a MX delay to ORF), reduced rest overnight, then I got a ONE leg day the next day ORF-MSP, deadhead to BDL, then one more leg the next day BDL-IND with a deadhead home to MEM (which scheduling dropped the ball on, but I wound up getting the jumpseat anyway).
The goal was to fix my approaches. I had some ugly ones and some decent ones. They started getting MUCH better around the next to last day. I had a hideous approach into MSP, then redeemed myself with a night visual into ORF later on. Coming into IND this morning, we had to shoot the ILS 23L NEARLY to mins (low clouds and haze), and I followed that approach up with a greaser landing. My check airman's reponse was "I'll be damned, he CAN fly."
So, looks like the landing problem is more or less under control. They still want to see about five more good landings before releasing me to the line just to make sure I'm consistant. One more trip oughta do it for that. So, now I'm back home waiting on scheduling to call, which should be sometime in the next couple of days.
Here's what I was doing wrong: I was putting TOO much control inputs in. It takes a little bit to realize how damn sensitive this jet is to any control inputs. I'm so used to having feedback through the control surfaces in porportion to the airflow and wrangling the controls in response to that. The CRJ uses a system that sorta mimics what the airflow SHOULD be doing, but it never gets it quite right. I was also making my power changes too big. Once you get it set around 63-66%, you just have to wiggle the thrust levers a bit to get what you need. Once I stopped over controlling and more or less let the plane do its thing and just guide it, things were MUCH better.
Now that I'm having fun flying again, I'm looking forward to the next trip, getting this done and getting released to the line. I won't be able to bid until Aug, but by that time, maybe I can hold a line.
Two leg day on Sat (one to MSP and one LONG assed one with a MX delay to ORF), reduced rest overnight, then I got a ONE leg day the next day ORF-MSP, deadhead to BDL, then one more leg the next day BDL-IND with a deadhead home to MEM (which scheduling dropped the ball on, but I wound up getting the jumpseat anyway). The goal was to fix my approaches. I had some ugly ones and some decent ones. They started getting MUCH better around the next to last day. I had a hideous approach into MSP, then redeemed myself with a night visual into ORF later on. Coming into IND this morning, we had to shoot the ILS 23L NEARLY to mins (low clouds and haze), and I followed that approach up with a greaser landing. My check airman's reponse was "I'll be damned, he CAN fly."
So, looks like the landing problem is more or less under control. They still want to see about five more good landings before releasing me to the line just to make sure I'm consistant. One more trip oughta do it for that. So, now I'm back home waiting on scheduling to call, which should be sometime in the next couple of days.
Here's what I was doing wrong: I was putting TOO much control inputs in. It takes a little bit to realize how damn sensitive this jet is to any control inputs. I'm so used to having feedback through the control surfaces in porportion to the airflow and wrangling the controls in response to that. The CRJ uses a system that sorta mimics what the airflow SHOULD be doing, but it never gets it quite right. I was also making my power changes too big. Once you get it set around 63-66%, you just have to wiggle the thrust levers a bit to get what you need. Once I stopped over controlling and more or less let the plane do its thing and just guide it, things were MUCH better.
Now that I'm having fun flying again, I'm looking forward to the next trip, getting this done and getting released to the line. I won't be able to bid until Aug, but by that time, maybe I can hold a line.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Well, I'm finally done with OE. After six more legs with another check airman (this one at least based out of MEM), I got the signature that officially releases me to the line. Learned a few more tricks on flying the CRJ that made some things I was having trouble with even that much easier. Approaches and landings are now stabilized and up to line standards, I've got the whole ACARS/FMS thing down cold, and I have somewhat of a clue when it comes to when and what airports have ramp towers, ops freqs, etc.
Now, I get to sit reserve for who knows how long. My sim partner was DAMN close to holding a line this last bid (he forgot to turn his in), and he's two spots UNDER me. So, I might be able to hold a line come Aug or so. We'll see what happens!
Now, I get to sit reserve for who knows how long. My sim partner was DAMN close to holding a line this last bid (he forgot to turn his in), and he's two spots UNDER me. So, I might be able to hold a line come Aug or so. We'll see what happens!