Just Finished in Manassas, Any Questions?

[stultus]

[ QUOTE ]
The cross country is about 70 hours of PIC-- half is as a flying pilot and half is as a non-flying pilot (safety pilot). But dont let that disuade you...

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it only then 35 hours on the XC that you log as safety pilot?

Making the breakdown something like:

70 Hours Multi-Engine Cross-Country (all PIC 1/2 as safety pilot)

67 Hours Multi-Engine Instruction & Flight Checks (all PIC, none as safety pilot)

3 Hours Citation 501 Jet (SIC)

50 Hours Multi-Engine FTD

10 Hours single engine

So you end up with 102 hours as ME PIC, 10 hours SE PIC, 50 hours sim and 3 jet SIC hours.

They say you've got to fork over roughly $2400 for examiners fees--that's for 7 checkrides, right? Is the cost of the a/c rental included in the quoted $35K? Are there any other expenses that came up outside of the advertised price?

[ QUOTE ]
My advice, if you are serious about becoming a professional pilot, get started now. Quit your day job and get going. Your job as a pilot, IMHO, starts when you start the program--not when you finish. Sooner or later youre going to have to take the leap.


[/ QUOTE ]

I just quit this week!

And I may very well end up at ATP soon.

 

[Merlin]

You pay $300 per checkride. That is the only fee that your $35000 doesnt cover.

The airplane, instruction, lodging, charts/plates, books, fuel (if you have to pay for it on your credit card during a cross country is reimbursed), transportation when on an overnight cross country, and the use of the airplane for the checkrides are all included in the price.

If you have to build extra time to get to the minimum cross country requirement, you can purchase that time extra--it includes an instructor and the C172 and is very reasonably priced.

The only thing I am not sure of is what happens if you fail a checkride. You have to pay another $300 to the examiner, but I dont know how they work re-training and reuse of the aircraft into the price. It seems pretty simple to me... dont fail a checkride.

And of course, ATP isnt going to feed you.

Jeremy

 

[aloft]

[ QUOTE ]
So you end up with 102 hours as ME PIC, 10 hours SE PIC, 50 hours sim and 3 jet SIC hours.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your arithmetic's off a bit; you end up with 137 ME PIC, not 102, for a total of 150 actual flight hours including the 10 hrs SE and 3 hrs Citation SIC time.

 

[pscraig]

Close. The first 6 hours or so is not PIC, since you're not MEL rated yet when you arrive. The jet time is also included in the 140 multi hours. I ended up with 140 multi (131 PIC, 3 SIC, 6 in prep for PMEL checkride) 10 single PIC, 50 FTD (AST-300 and Frasca 242).

 

[stultus]

[ QUOTE ]

Your arithmetic's off a bit;

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry...thanks for the heads up. I left out the 35 PIC hours acting as safety pilot.

So taking into account the first 6 dual hours it should read: you end up with 96 hours as ME PIC flying pilot, 35 hours ME PIC non flying pilot, 6 hours ME dual, 10 hours SE PIC, 50 hours ME sim, and 3 jet SIC hours.

I've scheduled a tour of the Riverside location this Saturday and I'm really looking forward to it (though not the drive...basically 2+ hours and I never leave the concrete jungle that is LA)

I was a little surprised to find out that there's only 4 instructors at Riverside...but really surprised to find out that there's only 1 that's right ONE instructor at VNY. I guess it is a new location. Anyone got the numbers for LGB?

I've got some questions I've been thinking of, maybe some of them you guys can answer before I get there.

I was told that the cost includes all the books and they'll send them out to me beforehand. What books are they?

The 50 sim hours are surely very valuable in training...how useful are they for getting a job afterwards?

What are everyone's experiences getting jobs after leaving ATP?

Anyone got any suggestions for other questions I can ask?

Thanks for all your help, it's been very useful.

 

[Captain_Bob]

[ QUOTE ]
I was told that the cost includes all the books and they'll send them out to me beforehand. What books are they?


[/ QUOTE ] From one of my previous threads in the ATP forum:[ QUOTE ]
Here's what I got...

1. Jeppesen Instrument/Commercial Manual (Large Textbook, Great Resource!)
2. The Turbine Engine Manual
3. Gleim Books for Instrument/Commercial/FIA/FOI
4. ASA Oral Exam Guides for each checkride
5. PTS's for each checkride
6. FAA books: Airplane Flying Handbook, Instrument Flying Handbook, and Aviation Instructors Handbook
7. Piper Seminole Supplement
8. Piper Seminole POH
9. Cessna 172 POH
10. FAR/AIM
11. A 3 ring student binder with daily quizes and pre-tests.
12. 3 ATP polo shirts
13. An ATP Backpack to carry the whole load!

[/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ]
Anyone got any suggestions for other questions I can ask?


[/ QUOTE ]
Hope that helps, just remember that there are 18 pages of threads here on the ATP Forum alone... There is a tremendous amount of information and perspectives from students and instructors both old and new that would be worth your time to review if you are looking at investing this much money into a program like ATP.

I enjoy answering questions regarding the program but if I don't refer you to past threads then you are only getting my perspective, and that's not neccesarily fair to you. The previous threads have posts from people who are no longer monitoring, reviewing, or posting on JC anymore and as a result won't be answering your current post... but answers are there to be found...

There's gold in them thar hills! Go west young man!

Seriously though, I'm happy to help... just wanted to remind you of the resource of threads past. Don't let that stop you from asking questions... but it may help you to answer your own question of "Anyone got any suggestions for other questions I can ask?"

Have fun on your tour!

Bob

 

[aloft]

[ QUOTE ]
I was a little surprised to find out that there's only 4 instructors at Riverside...but really surprised to find out that there's only 1 that's right ONE instructor at VNY. I guess it is a new location.

[/ QUOTE ]

VNY is indeed new, but the impression I've gotten is that most locations have only one or two instructors; more than that, and it's one of the busier locations.

[ QUOTE ]
I was told that the cost includes all the books and they'll send them out to me beforehand. What books are they?

[/ QUOTE ]

This has been answered before; do a search.

[ QUOTE ]
The 50 sim hours are surely very valuable in training...how useful are they for getting a job afterwards?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're kidding, right? The sim time makes for more effective instruction, which makes you a better instrument pilot. (It's also more time- and cost-effective.)

 

[stultus]

[ QUOTE ]

Hope that helps, just remember that there are 18 pages of threads here on the ATP Forum alone... There is a tremendous amount of information and perspectives from students and instructors both old and new that would be worth your time to review if you are looking at investing this much money into a program like ATP.

I enjoy answering questions regarding the program but if I don't refer you to past threads then you are only getting my perspective, and that's not neccesarily fair to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for that, Bob. I have gone through 8 of those 18 pages and when time allows I'll get to the other 10. I do often use the seach function--but will try my hardest to utilize it often before asking more questions. It does seem like in some other forums around here the same questions come up time and time again.

[ QUOTE ]
Go west young man!

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, Riverside is east of me

I know, I know...

[ QUOTE ]
You're kidding, right? The sim time makes for more effective instruction

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, no. I wasn't.

If I do the rest of my ratings here at the FBO I wouldn't fly a sim once. I'd imagine that'd be the same at MANY FBOs across the country. So I was wondering if said FBOs--and other possible employers for my first flying gig--might consider time in a sim not as valuable as actual air time, especially in a CFI with VERY low time. I don't know what's so off-the-wall about that--seems like a valid question to me, though maybe it's more univeral than just the ATP forum. Though it's certainly as relevant as what type of headsets people at ATP have been using.

 

[aloft]

[ QUOTE ]
If I do the rest of my ratings here at the FBO I wouldn't fly a sim once. I'd imagine that'd be the same at MANY FBOs across the country. So I was wondering if said FBOs--and other possible employers for my first flying gig--might consider time in a sim not as valuable as actual air time, especially in a CFI with VERY low time.

[/ QUOTE ]

FBOs are out to separate you from as much of your money as they possibly can; they all have break-even points in terms of hours put on each airframe each month, so naturally, they'd prefer you flew those hours you might otherwise do in a sim--not to mention the expense and upkeep of a sim, which many would find optional. In the case of ATP, with their flat-fee approach, they're motivated to spend as little as possible to get you the training you've paid for--hence the 50 hrs in the sim. Remember, there are no avgas bills, no oil changes, no 50 and 100 hr inspections to pay for on a sim.

That aside, let's look at the other side of the equation: how many approaches do you think you can get in in an hour? Maybe 3-4 in a real airplane, easily twice that in a sim--and you can't put an airplane on "pause". Remember, IFR is mostly a mental exercise in positional awareness, one that can be accomplished on the ground in a box, or even in front of a PC. There's a reason military flight training is considered superior to civilian, and their extensive use of sims is one reason.

 

[pscraig]

Sim time is far more efficient and better for learning the initial stages of instrument flying. They are great for learning the procedures and building an instrument scan. Without those two, time in the plane is wasteful and full of distractions. Once the procedures are down cold and the scan is on par, it's time to fly and put those new tools to work.

FBOs don't have sims because they are expensive, and don't keep the planes flying.

 

[SteveC]

[ QUOTE ]
...FBOs don't have sims because they are expensive, and don't keep the planes flying.

[/ QUOTE ]While there is some truth in that statement, there is another side to the FBO / sim thought. For example, a friend of mine that runs a flight school here in Michigan, just brought in a Frasca sim. Why would he do that if it will cut into airplane utilization? Two reasons:
1. Because of the crappy winter weather in this area. The thought is that he can keep some people training even when the ice won't let them fly. This generates at least some extra cash flow during the slow months.
2. He's smart enough to know that if he can keep the overall cost and time investment by the student to a minimum, he can generate more students. If the plane utilization is lower because of sim usage, he just does not add to the fleet until he has enough students to justify it.

(Also, while sims are expensive, I believe that my friend got his through a deal with the manufacturer where he pays an hourly fee based on Hobbs time on the sim. Don't know what other costs might be involved, though.)

In other words, the reasons for an FBO to use a sim are the same as for an Academy. Who'd a thunk it?

 

[stultus]

I made it out to Riverside last weekend and things look pretty darn good. Things seemed kinda quiet, but the facilities and planes looked great. A CFI named Matt took quite a bit of time to show me around and answer many of my questions, though I ran out of time and still have a few.