Just a reminder about numbers and letters

E_Dawg said:
Heard on the radio yesterday:

Airliner: "Checkin in 350, we're deviatin left"

ATC: "Okay, how far left do you need to go?"

Airliner: "Ohhhh, ahhh, about a handful of miles"

ATC: "...approved"


I won't say what airline it was, but their initials were SWA.
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Everyone LOVES to rag on SW for some reason, but how many fatal accidents have they had?
 
mikecweb said:
I think the whole idea that CALcapt was trying to get across is not whether the world will end or if instant death will result it's more towards steps to be more professional. Something no one can argue is a bad thing.
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Dooooom!
 
mtsu_av8er said:
"Checking in" should be done away with, too.

:confused:
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Agreed. Wasted radio bandwidth entirely!

"Checkin' in!"

Really... Wow, uhh, I thought the guy was just randomly choosing frequencies to give some sort of radiotelephonic "Killroy was HERE!" :)
 
cmill said:
Sorry, id rather sound professional and look sloppy.

Also, no way i would ever press my pants, or even my shirt for that matter, for the pay and BS that most regional FO's get. If they want people to look "professional" they should start treating them and paying them like professionals.
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I hate that you feel that way, but on the radio you're talking to controllers and the other pilot's are listening in (except on United when they turn on Chan 9)...but when you're walking through the terminal, you're not only representing yourself but our profession as a whole.

If you want better pay and work rules, then you work for them...don't sit around and whine about it. I'm furloughed and can whine just like everyone else, but I can say that the airline I went to work for paid a pretty descent wage and they actually do pay pretty well if someone chose to make a career there (seeing as how they have a very senior pilot group).

You have a choice when you apply at an airline. You know how much the pay is (because you've researched it), you know where you're likely to be based (which you also would hopefully research). To sit here and tell me that you'd rather do a disservice to yourself and your profession because you made a CHOICE to fly for XYZ airlines, knowing how much (or little if you want) they pay...it smirks of BS.

As MikeD said earlier, there's a time and a place...if you don't like, then don't do it...it's a free country afterall... :D
 
cmill said:
Sorry, id rather sound professional and look sloppy.

Also, no way i would ever press my pants, or even my shirt for that matter, for the pay and BS that most regional FO's get. If they want people to look "professional" they should start treating them and paying them like professionals.
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So, I take it you showed up at your interview wearing your p.j.'s with your hair lookin' like you just woke up? Kinda doubt it. If your employer saw you in uniform looking the way you just described with you giving him/her the rationale you just did above, I think you'd be out of a j-o-b.

C'mon, keep it real!
 
SurferLucas said:
I hate that you feel that way, but on the radio you're talking to controllers and the other pilot's are listening in (except on United when they turn on Chan 9)...but when you're walking through the terminal, you're not only representing yourself but our profession as a whole.

If you want better pay and work rules, then you work for them...don't sit around and whine about it. I'm furloughed and can whine just like everyone else, but I can say that the airline I went to work for paid a pretty descent wage and they actually do pay pretty well if someone chose to make a career there (seeing as how they have a very senior pilot group).

You have a choice when you apply at an airline. You know how much the pay is (because you've researched it), you know where you're likely to be based (which you also would hopefully research). To sit here and tell me that you'd rather do a disservice to yourself and your profession because you made a CHOICE to fly for XYZ airlines, knowing how much (or little if you want) they pay...it smirks of BS.

As Mike said earlier, there's a time and a place...if you don't like, then don't do it...it's a free country afterall... :D
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Actually, I'm not whining, never worked for an airline, never intend to, and somewhat enjoy my job. I fly cargo, and wear shorts and tennis shoes. I was just trying to make a point. I think its kinda funny how all companies, whether regional, major, or 135, put a huge emphasis on professionalism, and then do everything they can to try and screw the employee. Im not saying all companies treat their employees like crap, but a lot of them do. Is it a reason to be unprofessional? No. But professionalism is a two way street.

But, i understand why it is the way it is. There wouldnt be too many passengers if pilots showed up in the clothes that they could actually afford with their paychecks.

At the end of the day, considering everything we put up with as pilots, especially us lower level guys, is proper phraseology the thing we need to be arguing about? If everyone on this board put as much effort into actually trying to change things instead of getting into a pissing contest on the internet, things would be a lil bit different.

So the next time you hear someone say "checkin in" or sayin oh instead of zero, stop and think. In the grand scheme of things, is it really that big of a deal?
 
JKJCKSN said:
So, I take it you showed up at your interview wearing your p.j.'s with your hair lookin' like you just woke up? Kinda doubt it. If your employer saw you in uniform looking the way you just described with you giving him/her the rationale you just did above, I think you'd be out of a j-o-b.

C'mon, keep it real!
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Actually, the only time my employer has ever said anything about my appearance is when i showed up for duty in flip flops, but the packages, well... they've never said a word.
 
I agree with you there Cmill...in fact, I'll even say I snapped...and for that I do apologize. If you ever end up in ATL, I'll buy the first beer

:beer:
 
SurferLucas said:
I agree with you there Cmill...in fact, I'll even say I snapped...and for that I do apologize. If you ever end up in ATL, I'll buy the first beer

:beer:
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No apologies necessary. :)

And ill let ya buy the first, as long as I get a chance to buy the 12th :rawk:
 
jhugz said:
CalCapt I have much respect for you sir but I strongly disagree. When you are talking to air traffic control you are just having a conversation. Who cares if you say three instead of tree and nine instead of niner or oh instead of zero. As long as the point gets across and understood then who cares. If there is any question about phraseology whether the pilot or controller doesn't know exactly what is going on something will be said.

I have a much bigger problem with people using improper radio calls in non-controlled airspace due to not having another set of eyes on you.
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The way you sound on the radios represent you and your company. If you are ever in an incident or accident that was caused by improper radio phraseology, you're pretty much toast.

It's probably a good idea to use the phraseology listed in the FAR/AIM to the best of your abilities. By no way am I perfect with my phraseology, but I do try my best to keep my communication with ATC simple, concise, and by the book.

I believe that communication and personal appearance are both important in a 121 enviroment (actually anytime you're carrying passengers of importance to your company), but I believe that communications is more important aspect of professionalism.
 
I set a goal every New Years to improve one bit of my radio phraseology. The first year I did this I dropped "for" and "to" in my altitude checkins. The second year I tried to use single digits for my flight numbers ("two-two-five" as opposed to "two-twentyfive") I think next year I am going to attempt to start adding "speed", "heading" or "Climb or Descend" to my clearance read backs.
 
Cptnchia said:
How about this. One captain I flew with a while back had an anniying habit. Every time we got a freq change, he would just switch the radio after answering with our flight number. Never once read back the new freq.
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LOL. There's always one out there. There used to be this guy who flew freight into MKE at night. He answered EVERYTHING with "roger".
 
calcapt said:
Hey guys, just as a reminder:

When you are reporting altitudes to ATC, please use the proper phraseology with respect to the number zero.

FL280 is 28 Zero NOT 28 Oh (as in the letter O)

I just finished a 4 day trip and heard far too many pilots make this mistake.

Becoming a professional pilot is accomplished one step at a time - this is simply one of those steps.
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Oh man, when I saw the thread title, I thought you were watching Sesame Steet on a layover. :p :D
 
Tip for life, controllers can never tell if you say Unicorn instead of Uniform. Enjoy it.

I never say with you, I mean obviously you're with them if you're on the radio. I do however always start the call with "Good afternoon/morning/evening".
 
jhugz said:
CalCapt I have much respect for you sir but I strongly disagree. When you are talking to air traffic control you are just having a conversation. Who cares if you say three instead of tree and nine instead of niner or oh instead of zero. As long as the point gets across and understood then who cares. If there is any question about phraseology whether the pilot or controller doesn't know exactly what is going on something will be said.
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You certainly are entitled to disagree with me - even jtrain is afforded that luxury. :laff:

For a moment, let's discuss your "who cares" philosophy. I approach this discussion with the utmost sincerity and respect. Aviation is a unique animal in that it is extremely difficult to produce a predictably safe product with so many individual personalities and the quirkiness that exists in most pilot pools. If pilots were allowed to individualize their flying techniques like picking and choosing checklist items or arbitrarily choosing their own techniques for abnormal situations, there would be an absolute meltdown of current safety standards. Standardization is what makes it work despite a few holdouts that still do it their way for reasons unknown. Defining touchdown zones, approach parameters, phraseology, emergency procedures and most other duties associated with a flight allows us all to essentially operate in this zone of commonality and predictability. I know what techniques and procedures my first officer will be using because we have trained that way. And, not having to wonder what the other guy is doing improves safety by significant margins.

So as you said, who really cares if you use zero or oh? I will admit that most controllers probably don't care. In fact, I don't ever recall hearing a controller scold anyone for using oh instead of zero. So if they don't care why should you? I think you should care because throughout an aviation career you will be called on and pressured by many to do things that are in strict violation of FARs and/or company regulations. You will have many many opportunities to put your own rationalizations and justifications into everyday routine things as well as very challenging situations that need solutions. Admittedly, some of the decisions I have made as a captain have not 100 percent complied with the all the rules. These decisions are never easy for me, nor should they be. If I allow myself to become comfortable using non standard techniques (including phraseology), it is only one small step in becoming comfortable with the next non standard thing, then the next, then the next. Standardization should be the norm for all of us as that is where we will achieve peace of mind in our careers, while providing our passengers with the absolute highest safety margins, which is essentially our job.

Am I perfect in my phraseology - Absolutely not. Do I say tree and fife instead of three and five - Nope. But, I am aware that five and fife are the same thing, as is tree and three. Zero and oh are not the same thing. Nobody would ever think to identify the NORAD fix as November Zero Romeo Alpha Delta would they?

I believe the successful outcome of a flight is no real indicator that the flight was conducted safely. I have seen horrible technique and poor decision making used on flight decks, yet they managed to get the airplane to the gate. Just because it arrived, can we seriously deduct that it is no different than the flight that arrives at the next gate over that was flown by a professional crew that conducted their flight to the highest levels of integrity and standardization? To the outsider they see no difference, but I would certainly have issues about which flight I placed my family on as would most here.

Here is the bottom line guys....You are all free obviously to pick and choose the way you will attach your signature to your flights. If you are comfortable in the way you do things - so be it. The purpose of my post was to remind everybody that it becomes a slippery slope when we start rationalizing that wrong is right - it isn't, and never will be despite the fact that we sometimes try to make it so. Learning from today, and being a better pilot tomorrow should be the worthy goal of each if us.
 
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