scooter2525
Very well Member
How about... both?
Judge lets American Airlines toss out its pilots contract
- Thread starter derg
- Start date
killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I don't meet the qualifications. I have a soul.
No, I'd do it.
Their CEO probably has no more leadership experience than the average working 40 year old.
And I'm being serious.
Sent from my TRS-80
ComplexHiAv8r
Well-Known Member
Derg said:
Are they hiring? I could use a job!
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Now a days the requirements for CEO really have little to do with operating the business or even knowing the product. Delta's CEO is a prime example. Goes from being CEO of Northwest AIRLINES to United HEALTHCARE? Yeah, those two have TONS in common. Completely different products. Completely different industries. I couldn't just jump from being a regional captain to a ship captain. I have no clue how to steet the damn thing. But that's essentially what CEOs do all the time. Just because you manage a company doesn't mean you can do it intelligently with a staff to "get you up to speed" in a month or so. One of the reasons I thought Menke might have been a smart choice for Pinnacle was because he'd a) actually run an airline before and b) had experience with another airline in financial trouble. Ultimately, and I honestly think this is what happened, he released his hands were tied and he probably wasn't told the whole truth when he took the job anyway. Pinnacle's gotten very good at telling half truths and shady facts over the years.
As for management being out of touch, I completely agree with what Screaming Emu said above, and I'm at a different airline. We don't have a YouTube competition because they'd have to pull all the videos for excessive profanity. Probably wind up getting the cops called on people for death threats. If we get the company term sheet imposed on us in the bankruptcy process, it wouldn't surprise me at all if someone went postal on management or wound up standing in the lobby of One Commerce Square in downtown Memphis with a vest loaded with C4 and a detonator. Seriously. These are people's lives and families management is jacking with, but as long as it isn't THEIR life or THEIR family, they really couldn't care less. They get to cash their half million dollar salary at the end of the day and hit "reboot," all while telling us times are tough and we all need to sacrifice. They ask for monetary concessions from the pilots and flight attendants, but there's nothing in their plan on how to budget smart, running more efficient training classes, schedule more efficiently or reduce the number of cancellations or controllable delays. In my nearly 7 years here (dear god, help me), not ONE delay I've had has been because of a flight crew issue. I've lost count of how many delays were actually SAVED by myself or a member of my crew, though. Really, if we want to wreck our on-time performance to 0%, just don't drop the parking break until everything is ready. 98% of the time the ramp isn't ready to go at push time, we're still waiting on the cargo door to close, there's an issue with the flight release or we have weight and balance issues.
As for management being out of touch, I completely agree with what Screaming Emu said above, and I'm at a different airline. We don't have a YouTube competition because they'd have to pull all the videos for excessive profanity. Probably wind up getting the cops called on people for death threats. If we get the company term sheet imposed on us in the bankruptcy process, it wouldn't surprise me at all if someone went postal on management or wound up standing in the lobby of One Commerce Square in downtown Memphis with a vest loaded with C4 and a detonator. Seriously. These are people's lives and families management is jacking with, but as long as it isn't THEIR life or THEIR family, they really couldn't care less. They get to cash their half million dollar salary at the end of the day and hit "reboot," all while telling us times are tough and we all need to sacrifice. They ask for monetary concessions from the pilots and flight attendants, but there's nothing in their plan on how to budget smart, running more efficient training classes, schedule more efficiently or reduce the number of cancellations or controllable delays. In my nearly 7 years here (dear god, help me), not ONE delay I've had has been because of a flight crew issue. I've lost count of how many delays were actually SAVED by myself or a member of my crew, though. Really, if we want to wreck our on-time performance to 0%, just don't drop the parking break until everything is ready. 98% of the time the ramp isn't ready to go at push time, we're still waiting on the cargo door to close, there's an issue with the flight release or we have weight and balance issues.
So what is it we are supposed to do? As much as I love a good circle jerk it doesn't do much good in changing things. We can unite and form stronger unions. Ok but there is always going to be the Gojets and RAH's and Southwest Airlines of the world that will do it cheaper. The stronger unions will be punished, either losing contracts as regionals or through bankruptcy if the company name is on the side of the plane. You can say well vote for my candidate because he will work to make it better. Fantastic idea. Did anyone hear about the poor suffering airline pilots in either of the conventions? We're not a "base". They don't need our vote so our needs don't concern them as much as some would believe.
For the past 4 years I've flown for the evil CEOs of the world. You know what, they're pretty freaking "evil". They waste money with the best of them. They employed me, which I'm grateful for, but all but one of them would get rid of me in a second if they knew of a cheaper option that would accomplish the same goal. They would do this because as the top dog they are very good at self preservation. Their "base" is their shareholders or BODs. Please them and they got a golden parachute waiting.
I'm a fairly optimistic person. I don't suscribe to the idea that we're going to set the streets on fire soon because what we're doing is unsustainable. There has got to be a better solution. We as an industry built these machines that have amazing safety records and have made the world incredibly small. There's gotta be a solution to this spiral. If you truly believe that solution is Obama, Romney, or hell even Ron Paul I think you are just want a short term good feeling. It's time to take this industry and this country back.
For the past 4 years I've flown for the evil CEOs of the world. You know what, they're pretty freaking "evil". They waste money with the best of them. They employed me, which I'm grateful for, but all but one of them would get rid of me in a second if they knew of a cheaper option that would accomplish the same goal. They would do this because as the top dog they are very good at self preservation. Their "base" is their shareholders or BODs. Please them and they got a golden parachute waiting.
I'm a fairly optimistic person. I don't suscribe to the idea that we're going to set the streets on fire soon because what we're doing is unsustainable. There has got to be a better solution. We as an industry built these machines that have amazing safety records and have made the world incredibly small. There's gotta be a solution to this spiral. If you truly believe that solution is Obama, Romney, or hell even Ron Paul I think you are just want a short term good feeling. It's time to take this industry and this country back.
pullup
Homewrecker
I agree. I always see everyone up in arms about how poorly every airline has ever been run, yet I never see anyone try to change it from the inside.
Patrick
Well-Known Member
They'd never give anyone the chance to change it from the inside. If we took a page from the Europeans and Asians, and promoted from within, with people who have actually done the job on the ground floor (at Honda, for instance, EVERY SINGLE new employee spends a year on the shop floor- whether you were hired to be an engineer or an accountant- as they want you to understand WHAT the company DOES), we might have a shot at fixing things.
50 years ago in this country, the possibility existed for a guy to be hired at Company A as an apprentice, go to college on the company's dime to become an engineer, who got promoted to VP, to COO, and eventually to CEO. That guy knew whatever business the company was in inside and out, and further, knew how THEY did it inside and out, and actually knew what it was like "on the inside" and was probably a great leader when he finally got handed the reigns. Today, this simply doesn't happen anymore.
Gonzo
Well-Known Member
There are some pilots here that believe AMR is not going to file a 1113 on Eagle and are going to vote the TA down. They seem to believe the judge will side with the pilots.
killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
DISCLAIMER - My comment here is strictly about the role of an executive and should in no way be construed as favoring or opposing this AMR thing in any way - I do not have any sort of axe to grind. I do, however, feel it necessary to comment on the role of an exec, having known and worked intimately with quite a few.
The title of "CEO" or plain ol' "Executive" has become a profession itself. Executive leadership does not REQUIRE that the exec know the ins and outs of each product and widget; this is what VPs, Directors and Section Heads are for, depending on your organizational chart. The reason is straightforward; at a certain point from a leadership perspective, all companies really look alike - there are P&L statements, cost centers, etc - and the differences between making decisions on a $30B company vs. a $30M company are hair-splittingly thin. BoDs may prefer an executive with industry-or-field experience, but it's ultimately not the yardstick they measure the hire by.
Whoever said it earlier about Board of Directors and Shareholders had it right. Ultimately - those entities are the customers of the President/CEO. Not labor. Never labor.
The title of "CEO" or plain ol' "Executive" has become a profession itself. Executive leadership does not REQUIRE that the exec know the ins and outs of each product and widget; this is what VPs, Directors and Section Heads are for, depending on your organizational chart. The reason is straightforward; at a certain point from a leadership perspective, all companies really look alike - there are P&L statements, cost centers, etc - and the differences between making decisions on a $30B company vs. a $30M company are hair-splittingly thin. BoDs may prefer an executive with industry-or-field experience, but it's ultimately not the yardstick they measure the hire by.
Whoever said it earlier about Board of Directors and Shareholders had it right. Ultimately - those entities are the customers of the President/CEO. Not labor. Never labor.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
At my airline at least, you don't get to BE a management pilot unless you're in lock step with management already. Therefore, why should they change? Even when you get to senior check airmen, they're more concerned with upsetting their corner of the pond than the industry overall.....until the algae makes it into their corner. 9E is a prime example of this. We had senior check airmen screaming to vote in sub-par contracts to protect what they had or to get large bonuses. Now that we're all sinking, they're screaming with the rest of us. Irony is, if we had voted in what they wanted in the first place....we'd actually be in a worse situation. We'd still be fighting uphill (and NEVER getting) things like min day or 75% DH pay. We'd still be without a min day and at 50% DH pay with lower wages and worse work rules. So, either management wouldn't be asking for as many concessions, or (more likely) they'd be asking for even deeper cuts.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Yes, and those pilots are insane, and if they get their way, will ruin the careers of a great many people.
falconvalley
Absentee Dad of the OOTSK, Runner, Cat Frustrator
My first reaction was to to say "HEY- at least give us some recognition for getting pay and whipsaw limited!" I gotta say, though, you have a point. While we are trying to fix our pay and keep our flying in house, we are a contract airline. Even if we get the best 50-100 seat rates money can buy, we are supposed to be the cheaper alternative. If we don't do it, someone will. Now I wanna say that this now lies in the hands of each pilot group to protect their interests with scope, but history shows that there's always an opponent to scope trying to get some relief. The circle is competed. Logic tells me this will always be an issue so hopefully I will remember that when my number is up.
cstewart6
Just smart enough to operate the machines
I imagine it works something like this:
Management answers to the stock holders.
The stock holders want lower labor costs.
Management gets lower labor costs or else gets fired.
Profit.
Good luck with that.
cstewart6
Just smart enough to operate the machines
IMO, the problem is an oversupply of labor, just like every other industry that's suffering from lower wages and employers who can do whatever the hell they want because there is an infinite pool of applications. There's just too many people willing to do the work for less and less. So we either increase the number of jobs or decrease the number of applicants.
Brilliant..how? Restrict flight schools. Kill the dream, pull up the ladder type stuff? Higher standards?
How do we stop this: http://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/more-bad-news-from-the-middle-east-airlines.152210/
That's the end of our profession in this country right there and if that doesn't scare the poop out of you, not you but the general you, you need to get scared.
Hell, Seggy obviously gets it and he's just a dumb jock from NJ
bronco21016
I know H.T.M.L. (How To Meet Ladies)
Isn't all of that stuff exactly what doctors did for decades to keep their profession in check?
I think the airlines realize the 1,500 hr rule is going to dry up SOME of the pilots which may make it more difficult for regionals to staff and keep wages low. Why else would they fight the law and why else would 9E be looking for $29/hr the first year? My perspective on things getting started in aviation would have been far different if I had looked at it and saw that I would have to flight instruct 5-6 years before getting a crappy regional job. In fact I wouldn't have ever flown professionally if I hadn't gotten lucky. I was out. I quit. I wasn't going to CFI for 5 years at less than $20k just to get a job making about $20k. Stop letting the airlines lower the experience bar to whatever they want to get people in the door and they'll have to do something to attract people.