JetBlue's watch...

I know the instructor very well. He is a good friend. For the record, it was a meme that he sent to Peterson, not a photo of his watch and junk. Was he out of line? Absolutely. Was Peterson going to fail out? Yes (and this is from talking with another instructor as well). There are two sides to every story (the Post couldn't even get his name right), and I am sure that the other side will come out as well. The instructor has moved on, he is happy, and is flying again.
 
Sadly there are Captains at certain airlines who have multiple sexual harassment allegations and yet they are allowed to continue working, harassing, with not so much as a termination warning. Otherwise upgrade times might be what a certain airline's recruiting department states it is.

Challenge a company online though and you get to do the carpet dance, potentially leading to termination. Re: Providing reality when certain marketing material is blatantly lying to prospective recruits. But hey, keep gaining access to other crew member's rooms when they're slightly inebriated and have your way with them and its totally cool. But that's none of my business...until you have to work with one of the creepy dudes who can't keep their eyes up front and actually focus on the task at hand.
 
Sadly there are Captains at certain airlines who have multiple sexual harassment allegations and yet they are allowed to continue working, harassing, with not so much as a termination warning. Otherwise upgrade times might be what a certain airline's recruiting department states it is.

Challenge a company online though and you get to do the carpet dance, potentially leading to termination. Re: Providing reality when certain marketing material is blatantly lying to prospective recruits. But hey, keep gaining access to other crew member's rooms when they're slightly inebriated and have your way with them and its totally cool. But that's none of my business...until you have to work with one of the creepy dudes who can't keep their eyes up front and actually focus on the task at hand.

Wait, what?
 
Unless I mis-read this extended conversation, the instructor got fired for showing his watch-weenie shot. This is a somewhat extreme reaction, but no one should be surprised by it these days. The prevailing cultural norms say "No! This action crosses a pretty clear line"

In this world, there are mistakes that are egregious enough to justify termination. A few come to mind: reporting for work under the influence; landing with the gear still up. Landing at the wrong airport / on a taxiway / wrong or closed runway, and more.

Management thinking says that if an employee flaunts this particular rule, s/he is likely to flaunt others, some of which are likely to create a situation that is very damn dangerous to life, limb and aircraft.

I think it was Derg who said: "It's their airplane. Fly it the way they want."


To respond to your post about landing on a wrong runway, etc...

I disagree that someone should be fired for an error. Period. Errors happen. No one is immune.
 
To respond to your post about landing on a wrong runway, etc...

I disagree that someone should be fired for an error. Period. Errors happen. No one is immune.

100% agree, but why even have the conversation in this day and age. I know we all have said something that could be deemed unacceptable. But unfortunately in this day and age errors in judgement, especially sexual harassment is very hard to overlook as just an error, in HRs eyes. Sucks, I have personally been involved with multiple of these issues (not me, but part of review board) and have seen how HR works. It's like my drinking rule, I never drink and get in a car, if I'm pulled over, even if I had 1 beer, I can honestly tell the police I had zero. Don't know if the union can save him, hopefully they will.
 
100% agree, but why even have the conversation in this day and age. I know we all have said something that could be deemed unacceptable. But unfortunately in this day and age errors in judgement, especially sexual harassment is very hard to overlook as just an error, in HRs eyes. Sucks, I have personally been involved with multiple of these issues (not me, but part of review board) and have seen how HR works. It's like my drinking rule, I never drink and get in a car, if I'm pulled over, even if I had 1 beer, I can honestly tell the police I had zero. Don't know if the union can save him, hopefully they will.

That's because HR departments have become too heavy handed.
 
That's because HR departments have become too heavy handed.

HR departments have become just an extension of the legal department and accounting. The idea of what used to be called the progressive HR model has turned into, legal says we can get sued, accounting says its will cost X amount if we are, so HR you deal with it. It reminds me of the mafia and HR is the hit man. Hopefully it works out for the instructor.
 
To respond to your post about landing on a wrong runway, etc...

I disagree that someone should be fired for an error. Period. Errors happen. No one is immune.

Yes, we all have made (and probably will again make) errors in life. My ex-wives certainly will attest to that!

We put a lot of effort into systems to prevent and catch errors. Checklists and CRM are only the beginning. But my thesis is that some errors are so dangerous, combined with a likelihood that they are quite preventable, that their commission is the result of stupendous bad judgement or flagrant disregard for intelligent standard practices. They call for serious consequences for the person who commits them, and firing is certainly one. We could all name crashes as the result, with loss of life well beyond the person who made the 'mistake.' We may laugh at the Darwin Awards, but there are more out there who have survived.

There are societies where it would be "Off with their heads!" A bit harsh, but treason and mass-murder are accepted as just cause for execution, even by most in our society and the rest of the world.

Are there mitigating circumstances? Sometimes, yes. We never hear of some: a ground proximity warning nudging you to think: Oh, S&^%, no gear! "Going around!!!" But a belly-landing that causes an airline to write off an expensive aircraft is probably cause for more than a carpet dance. 'Make him/her pay for it" is probably impractical. Consider the SWA CA who took the airplane from the FO at KLGA moments before landing, and pranged it into a write-off. I believe she was fired, after a history of unacceptable actions contrary to SWA's standards and practices. In that case, prior corrective actions didn't suffice.

As a society, we are too ready and able to believe that mistakes shouldn't have consequences. Yes, they should be proportionate to the offense, its circumstances and the danger a reasonably intelligent person might see. But 'boys will be boys' for sexual harassment, or dangerous operation of an aircraft are wrong, and should have appropriate consequences. IMHO.
 
As someone not in the airline industry, it is pretty clear cut that the instructor had to be fired. Whenever someone has a say in the hiring and firing of someone below them, the stakes are raised when it comes to sexual harassment and there's usually no room for judgement. If it's a co-worker, it's still not right but there is some wiggle room.

It sort of boggles my mind when people do things like this via email, text or any other method which leaves a clear trail. I bet this guy would have kept his job if he had just been a he said/he said situation.
 
I know the instructor very well. He is a good friend. For the record, it was a meme that he sent to Peterson, not a photo of his watch and junk. Was he out of line? Absolutely. Was Peterson going to fail out? Yes (and this is from talking with another instructor as well). There are two sides to every story (the Post couldn't even get his name right), and I am sure that the other side will come out as well. The instructor has moved on, he is happy, and is flying again.

Okay I'll ask. What is a meme?
 
Okay I'll ask. What is a meme?


24005427_zpshy0bw8tz.jpg
 
Yes, we all have made (and probably will again make) errors in life. My ex-wives certainly will attest to that!

We put a lot of effort into systems to prevent and catch errors. Checklists and CRM are only the beginning. But my thesis is that some errors are so dangerous, combined with a likelihood that they are quite preventable, that their commission is the result of stupendous bad judgement or flagrant disregard for intelligent standard practices. They call for serious consequences for the person who commits them, and firing is certainly one. We could all name crashes as the result, with loss of life well beyond the person who made the 'mistake.' We may laugh at the Darwin Awards, but there are more out there who have survived.

There are societies where it would be "Off with their heads!" A bit harsh, but treason and mass-murder are accepted as just cause for execution, even by most in our society and the rest of the world.

Are there mitigating circumstances? Sometimes, yes. We never hear of some: a ground proximity warning nudging you to think: Oh, S&^%, no gear! "Going around!!!" But a belly-landing that causes an airline to write off an expensive aircraft is probably cause for more than a carpet dance. 'Make him/her pay for it" is probably impractical. Consider the SWA CA who took the airplane from the FO at KLGA moments before landing, and pranged it into a write-off. I believe she was fired, after a history of unacceptable actions contrary to SWA's standards and practices. In that case, prior corrective actions didn't suffice.

As a society, we are too ready and able to believe that mistakes shouldn't have consequences. Yes, they should be proportionate to the offense, its circumstances and the danger a reasonably intelligent person might see. But 'boys will be boys' for sexual harassment, or dangerous operation of an aircraft are wrong, and should have appropriate consequences. IMHO.

I think you might be confused a little. Is termination a nasty consequence? Yep. However, have you ever messed up and gone through re-training? I haven't either, but have been directly involved with two cases where the company ultimately chose that route. I think I'd rather be terminated or asked to resign... :) Yeah, you get a second chance, but there is A LOT riding on that retraining. The re-training is the consequence. Actually investigating an incident, re-training, and possibly adjusting policies and/or procedures is better, always.

In your SWA example, if true about their past, I'd say the culture failed...

In general, your way of thinking is VERY outdated for the current aviation world. I've worked under both a punitive and a shift towards a just safety culture. The later is MUCH more safe. I've argued the opposite a long time ago, but having seen it for myself, I have to change my stance on this. The previous was practiced for decades at almost every company and accomplished absolutely nothing towards improving safety.

Back OT, this is HR stuff and have no real stance on it, but I do think HR in general can be a little bit out of control sometimes. Short sighted especially.
 
...In your SWA example, if true about their past, I'd say the culture failed...

From public sources, including this quite-reliable one, it's true. But if the culture didn't work for this individual, but has been successful for literally thousands of others, what do you do? Yes, you continually examine how the culture is working, but when an single employee just doesn't get it, and has had multiple opportunities to listen, learn and 'fly right,' you don't throw out the culture, you terminate the single individual before they do more damage to the company and its customers. Gross stupidity can kill people!

...In general, your way of thinking is VERY outdated for the current aviation world. I've worked under both a punitive and a shift towards a just safety culture. The later is MUCH more safe. I've argued the opposite a long time ago, but having seen it for myself, I have to change my stance on this. The previous was practiced for decades at almost every company and accomplished absolutely nothing towards improving safety....

I'm afraid you missed my point. I certainly don't want a return to the cockpit era when a grizzled CA tells an alert young FO: "Ain't no stinkin' mountain in front of us! Shut up, Kid, and wait to flip the gear lever when I tell you to." I think a safety culture is a fine thing, and has contributed thousands of times each day to better flying. But I believe the reality is that some few failures are severe enough that they must have consequences of a serious nature. It is perhaps not the best part of the motivational matrix, but it is ONE TOOL that belongs in the managerial tool box. It's the tool of last resort.

As a manager, I've always felt that a termination is, at least in some part, my managerial failure. I may have cautioned the employee to not speed or drive recklessly, but I didn't, and shouldn't have to tell him/her not to pass a loaded school bus on a curve going 100 mph. That's the employee's failure, not mine. Or of the safety culture.

So, all praise and cheers for people using their company's flavor of safety culture to make the world a better place. But if a failure is bad enough, don't expect a pat on the back for doing something with tragic consequences, for which YOU are responsible. Fortunately, it's a v-e-r-y small percentage.
 
From public sources, including this quite-reliable one, it's true. But if the culture didn't work for this individual, but has been successful for literally thousands of others, what do you do? Yes, you continually examine how the culture is working, but when an single employee just doesn't get it, and has had multiple opportunities to listen, learn and 'fly right,' you don't throw out the culture, you terminate the single individual before they do more damage to the company and its customers. Gross stupidity can kill people!



I'm afraid you missed my point. I certainly don't want a return to the cockpit era when a grizzled CA tells an alert young FO: "Ain't no stinkin' mountain in front of us! Shut up, Kid, and wait to flip the gear lever when I tell you to." I think a safety culture is a fine thing, and has contributed thousands of times each day to better flying. But I believe the reality is that some few failures are severe enough that they must have consequences of a serious nature. It is perhaps not the best part of the motivational matrix, but it is ONE TOOL that belongs in the managerial tool box. It's the tool of last resort.

As a manager, I've always felt that a termination is, at least in some part, my managerial failure. I may have cautioned the employee to not speed or drive recklessly, but I didn't, and shouldn't have to tell him/her not to pass a loaded school bus on a curve going 100 mph. That's the employee's failure, not mine. Or of the safety culture.

So, all praise and cheers for people using their company's flavor of safety culture to make the world a better place. But if a failure is bad enough, don't expect a pat on the back for doing something with tragic consequences, for which YOU are responsible. Fortunately, it's a v-e-r-y small percentage.
I may have missed the point, but it seems with the SWA example, what should have been an end result before the incident, didn't happen. I'm not intimate with that exact example, so I can't really say for sure if any safe-guards failed. I do know that that captain used to work here and was one of the worst employees by ALL measures that has ever worked here. Where I'm at now, if the attitude is bad, gone! If the attitude is good, re-training. If the re-training is bad, gone as well. It took a fairly significant number of guys to threaten resignation, myself included, to get the slight transition towards the better safety culture that exists at my company now. Fortunately, most of the faces that acknowledged the change, but still had a bad attitude IMO are gone, so I think a lot more progress will be had.

One of your posts just screamed punitive safety culture to me, so I apologize if I misunderstood.
 
...One of your posts just screamed punitive safety culture to me, so I apologize if I misunderstood.

Apology accepted and back atcha. One of your posts just screamed: "For any mistake, just kiss the boo-boo." to me. We're much closer to the same page than it seemed. Neither of us want a return to the dark ages.
 
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