JetBlue Pilots vote against union

[H46Bubba]

The MikeD Academy of Pain is back.

LOL! I still can't see you crusing around in your 5.0 cruiser!:crazy:

 

[WacoFan]

I'll use AirTran as an example. These numbers were provided by our union's financial analyst using the company's own data:

AirTran's total Cost per Available Seat Mile (CASM) is 9.5 cents. If the pilots received a new contract that doubled our compensation (top 737 payrate would go to a whopping $304/hr), then our CASM would increase by only 0.07 cents to 9.57 cents. That is a 0.7% increase in the company's total costs. Now, let's be more reasonable and only assume a 30% increase in payrates. That would equate to only a 0.2% increase to the company's costs. In other words, completely unnoticeable, especially when the drop in oil prices is saving the company over $400 million per year.

I have a hard time getting my head around this. Not doubting your numbers or what you say, but it is difficult to comprehend this number being so low. Would be interesting to know what the other numbers in the CASM are - or a breakdown by percentage.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I have a hard time getting my head around this. Not doubting your numbers or what you say, but it is difficult to comprehend this number being so low. Would be interesting to know what the other numbers in the CASM are - or a breakdown by percentage.

Think of it this way: total non-fuel CASM is only about 5 cents. The rest is all fuel. Of the 5 cents, that includes not only labor, but aircraft leases, gate leases, executive compensation, landing fees, etc... Honestly, pilots don't make up a whole hell of a lot of the total CASM picture. Management has done a great job of fooling people into believing the opposite, but the facts just don't back them up.

 

[WacoFan]

Think of it this way: total non-fuel CASM is only about 5 cents. The rest is all fuel. Of the 5 cents, that includes not only labor, but aircraft leases, gate leases, executive compensation, landing fees, etc... Honestly, pilots don't make up a whole hell of a lot of the total CASM picture. Management has done a great job of fooling people into believing the opposite, but the facts just don't back them up.

Oh, I believe it - just hard to understand why airlines lose money if that is the case. My labor costs are significantly higher than that. Also, the leases would be more (I though).

 

[kellwolf]

Oh, I believe it - just hard to understand why airlines lose money if that is the case. My labor costs are significantly higher than that. Also, the leases would be more (I though).

Bad business decisions, mostly. They'll tell you the pilots will bankrupt them b/c they'll probably base that off of taking what the new CASM would be and assuming the plane is flying at a load factor where they lose money. To my knowledge, no airline has gone under b/c of a pilot contract. It's always either been economic or stupid that's sunk the ship. On the reverse, no airline has been SAVED by pilots taking a pay cut, either.

 

[grnclvrs]

A lot of you guys talk smack on velo, he may not be nice about it, but he's right. Until pilots decide to stand shoulder to shoulder the slide will continue.

Run-on sentence alert.

The problem with "velo" is that he is just a mouthpiece that thinks that he is doing pilots a favor by being political with his jumpseat when the fact of the matter is that by his own admission he has done absolutely nothing for the advancement of the profession. He stayed in the navy because he could not get a job at a union carrier, too lazy to go a non-union carrier and try to change it from within. The fact that he is a military pilot that got turned down by Fedex, Delta, and all the other Legacy carriers speaks volumes about his demeanor. He is worse than a scab. He is a blister, showed up when the work as done and is good for nothing. At least PCL tried to change his carrier's representation to one that he believed in.

Mods, I know you don't have the balls to leave this up so go ahead and delete it, I'll be back in a week.

 

[MikeD]

Run-on sentence alert.

The problem with "velo" is that he is just a mouthpiece that thinks that he is doing pilots a favor by being political with his jumpseat when the fact of the matter is that by his own admission he has done absolutely nothing for the advancement of the profession. He stayed in the navy because he could not get a job at a union carrier, too lazy to go a non-union carrier and try to change it from within. The fact that he is a military pilot that got turned down by Fedex, Delta, and all the other Legacy carriers speaks volumes about his demeanor. He is worse than a scab. He is a blister, showed up when the work as done and is good for nothing. At least PCL tried to change his carrier's representation to one that he believed in.

Mods, I know you don't have the balls to leave this up so go ahead and delete it, I'll be back in a week.

Not a very cool statement there, but so far as the meat of your comments, I do think Velo should at least be allowed a retort.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

The problem with "velo" is that he is just a mouthpiece that thinks that he is doing pilots a favor by being political with his jumpseat when the fact of the matter is that by his own admission he has done absolutely nothing for the advancement of the profession.

Velo has volunteered his time for his union for years, including serving as an MEC officer. To say that he's done nothing to advance his profession is absolutely false.

 

[Velocipede]

The problem with "velo" is that he is just a mouthpiece that thinks that he is doing pilots a favor by being political with his jumpseat when the fact of the matter is that by his own admission he has done absolutely nothing for the advancement of the profession.

Let's see. Where to start?

The heart of your "problem" appears to be my position of encouraging ALPA pilots to adhere to Sec. 115.E.2 of the ALPA admin manual and require a Union card for access to jumpseat privileges.

Apparently, its working, too, because more and more UNION pilots are taking notice of the fact that non-Union pilots are undercutting the profession.

He stayed in the navy because he could not get a job at a union carrier, too lazy to go a non-union carrier and try to change it from within.

"Facts" in error. The first time I tried to get out of the Navy, no one was hiring except AA. And I didn't have enough fixed wing time. The only possible job paid $900 a month. Having to support a family, the Navy was a pretty good option. I could stay in, go TAR and fly CV-580s and C-9s to build my time.

Oh, AND the fact that I would NEVER apply at a non-Union carrier in the first place. I guess that comes from being a card carrying Union member from High School (Rubber Workers and Brewery Workers).

The fact that he is a military pilot that got turned down by Fedex, Delta, and all the other Legacy carriers speaks volumes about his demeanor. He is worse than a scab. He is a blister, showed up when the work as done and is good for nothing. At least PCL tried to change his carrier's representation to one that he believed in.

I guess you have a hard time reading for comprhension. Here's the list I posted before of my rejections:

Delta - didn't have 20/20 vision
FedEx - not hiring
NWA - interview cancelled when they stopped hiring
United - interview offer after I had gotten hired
UPS - interview offer after I had gotten hired
Airborne - standing job offer
USAir - not hiring
TWA - not hiring

In retrospect, the biggest mistake I made was not going to that UPS interview.

Mods, I know you don't have the balls to leave this up so go ahead and delete it, I'll be back in a week.

Apparently they do.

Velo has volunteered his time for his union for years, including serving as an MEC officer. To say that he's done nothing to advance his profession is absolutely false.

Thanks, PCL.

Here's the list:

Scheduling Committee member
Grievance Committee member
MEC S/T (2 terms)
Council Safety Chairman
HazMat Chairman
Accident Investigator
National Cargo Committee member

 

[JoelT]

Run-on sentence alert.

The problem with "velo" is that he is just a mouthpiece that thinks that he is doing pilots a favor by being political with his jumpseat when the fact of the matter is that by his own admission he has done absolutely nothing for the advancement of the profession. He stayed in the navy because he could not get a job at a union carrier, too lazy to go a non-union carrier and try to change it from within. The fact that he is a military pilot that got turned down by Fedex, Delta, and all the other Legacy carriers speaks volumes about his demeanor. He is worse than a scab. He is a blister, showed up when the work as done and is good for nothing. At least PCL tried to change his carrier's representation to one that he believed in.

Mods, I know you don't have the balls to leave this up so go ahead and delete it, I'll be back in a week.

PWND

 

[seagull]

That would equate to only a 0.2% increase to the company's costs. In other words, completely unnoticeable

Not arguing that the pilots shouldn't get more $$, but wow, someone slept through some biz classes. A reality check here is needed.

The difference might seem small, but what was the total profit for the company? Without profit, you don't get investors, and you don't get access to relatively cheap capital, which means you can't get new airplanes, etc. If you're losing money and management chooses to INCREASE costs, just how long do you think the BOD will keep that management? If YOU owned a company and your manager did that, what would YOU do?

Let's put this another way, since most here will probably say that they'd give their employees more in some sort of false altruistic fantasy. When you're out shopping for a car, do you voluntarily pay full sticker or higher so you can ensure that the car salesman gets to earn a decent living?

The pilots, just like every other group, are trying to maximize their individual profit at the expense of others. The day your management just rolls over on it is the day to make sure your resume is up to date, because that means they aren't doing their job across the board. UAL was a classic example.

 

[Velocipede]

Not arguing that the pilots shouldn't get more $$, but wow, someone slept through some biz classes. A reality check here is needed....The day your management just rolls over on it is the day to make sure your resume is up to date, because that means they aren't doing their job across the board. UAL was a classic example.

Talk about needing a reality check. UAL never rolled over to the pilots. In fact, if you can remember all the way back to 2006, UAL along with USAir and to a lesser degree DAL used the bankruptcy court to drop pilot wages to non-Union levels (B6) and eliminate their pension obligations.

UAL isn't in trouble because they're a Union sugar daddy.

 

[dcramer16]

And for god's sakes.....the jumpseat threat is getting old.
No jumpseat if you're not ALPA
No jumpseat if you work for GoJets,Gulfstream,or Mesa
No jumpseat if you did'nt CFI

Where does it end.....How about this...pull every jumpseat out of every jet or TP and make everybody pony up some money to get to work.

Yeah, this is getting old. Thank god we don't have to deal with this petty drama in the freight world!

 

[seagull]

Talk about needing a reality check. UAL never rolled over to the pilots. In fact, if you can remember all the way back to 2006, UAL along with USAir and to a lesser degree DAL used the bankruptcy court to drop pilot wages to non-Union levels (B6) and eliminate their pension obligations.

UAL isn't in trouble because they're a Union sugar daddy.

I'm talking about the contract they had before then, with the management team they had at the time. UAL management was giving away the store. They agreements they had for purchases and leases were higher than they should have been also. The pilot contract is not what killed the goose, but it was indicative of the problems in their management at that time. I stand by my statements.

My post was not meant to be anti union, or saying that pilots aren't worth more, but rather pointing out the flaw in the reasoning. If you don't go into negotiations understanding the actual issues, you won't get very far.

 

[dcramer16]

I haven't ever been a die hard union fan. I don't have anything against them either, I'm pretty much neutral. But I will say, perhaps if Airnet would have had a union we all wouldn't have gotten screwed so hard by management as we did.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Not arguing that the pilots shouldn't get more $$, but wow, someone slept through some biz classes. A reality check here is needed.

Having seen all of the financial data and being advised on it by our financial analyst, I think I'm far more qualified to comment on it than you are.

The difference might seem small, but what was the total profit for the company?

Total profit for this year is expected to be $120 million. That is expected to grow every year for the foreseeable future. If we got absolutely every single thing we are hoping for in a contract, it wouldn't cost them no more than $30 million in additional costs per year. We can expect them to make up for some of that with additional ancillary revenue streams or slightly increased fares on select markets, so the net effect would probably be closer to a $20 million hit to their profits, leaving them with $100 million+ each year. I think they'll survive.

 

[seagull]

Having seen all of the financial data and being advised on it by our financial analyst, I think I'm far more qualified to comment on it than you are.



Total profit for this year is expected to be $120 million. That is expected to grow every year for the foreseeable future. If we got absolutely every single thing we are hoping for in a contract, it wouldn't cost them no more than $30 million in additional costs per year. We can expect them to make up for some of that with additional ancillary revenue streams or slightly increased fares on select markets, so the net effect would probably be closer to a $20 million hit to their profits, leaving them with $100 million+ each year. I think they'll survive.

Possibly, but you missed the point. Your post seemed to say "this is all we are asking for, why don't they just give it to us". Well, the company may decide to just do that, but I would be concerned about ANY company that agrees to pay more for anything without a bit of a fight in this environment. I guess what I am saying is that you shouldn't be mad if management is doing what they were hired to do, just as they shouldn't be mad that you are trying to get more. It's just business.

As for the amount of money, that's still quite a bit that can't be reinvested. Does the company reinvest, typically, or what do they do with their profits? Are they really going to make that much, seems the last financial statement showed the company losing money?

 

[derg]

Run-on sentence alert.
Mods, I know you don't have the balls to leave this up so go ahead and delete it, I'll be back in a week.

Balls? Dude, how about a month off for the insult? Enjoy.

And the challenge to leave it up or we're ball-less? Come on, what is this, high school?

 

[jtrain609]

Balls? Dude, how about a month off for the insult? Enjoy.

Walter Sobchak: OVER THE LINE!
Smokey: Huh?
Walter Sobchak: I'm sorry, Smokey. You were over the line, that's a foul.
Smokey: ########. Mark it 8, Dude.
Walter Sobchak: Uh, excuse me. Mark it zero. Next frame.
Smokey: ########, Walter. Mark it 8, Dude.
Walter Sobchak: Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules.

 

[derg]

That's yet another classic example of destroying a message with bad delivery.

Hell, Pope Benedict can give a rousing sermon that could bring the whole world together, but if he drops the F-bomb and says the word "chem trail", the message is moot.