JetBlue Pilots vote against union

[jtrain609]

Yeah, train, reading for comprehension isn't his strong suit.

You know I'm not even sure about that, I just think he lacks the visceral experience of having to deal with the things airline management can throw at you. After working both non union and union jobs in the aviation world, both for air carriers (one freight, one regional), I can tell you that if a non union management group is after you, you WILL be fired whether they have cause or not.

Until you see stuff like that, you don't understand how important having some representation is in this business.

 

[A320_DUDE]

You know I'm not even sure about that, I just think he lacks the visceral experience of having to deal with the things airline management can throw at you. After working both non union and union jobs in the aviation world, both for air carriers (one freight, one regional), I can tell you that if a non union management group is after you, you WILL be fired whether they have cause or not.

Until you see stuff like that, you don't understand how important having some representation is in this business.

I worked in the industry for 6 years at 3 different airlines as a ground pounder. I know what management can throw at you. I've had non union jobs and union ones....Hell I was one of the first ones to scream "Burn this ***** down" during my company's contract talks w/my union because I thought the offers were insulting. And BTW even with a union if they want you gone they'll get you gone...it just takes more work....i seen it happen a couple times.

My whole problem is this....so the JB guys don't want a union, not even an in house one. Okay...if that is what works with that group than good. I will agree with a earlier poster....if mgmt screws them (or even a percived screwing)then you'll see a union at JB.

But honestly what is the big deal. Union or no union they are out there doing the job safely and hopefully making money for not only themselves but for the company also. For alot of those guys that's it....there is no moving on if JB tanks, so I don't blame those ex TWA,USAir,United guys more than likely voted no for a union....considering what they all went though, I'd be a little gunshy too.

As far as they whole JS thing...we've had that arguement. I respect the captain authority on that...my problem is when even there is a issue somebody has to pull the whole "not on my JS" deal. IMHO its petty and embarassing to pilots as a whole because it make you guys sound like whiny 4 year olds with a playing keep-a-way with toy.

 

[jtrain609]

So you've been...a ramper.

Don't ask for a shovel when you're diggin' a hole bro.

 

[A320_DUDE]

So you've been...a ramper.

Yes....and a CSA and an Ops Agent. So it yeah it makes me a ignorant ground pounder but I still know what airline mgmt. is capable of doing.

jtrain...u know I respest your opinion, but my whole problem with "part" of this thread is that it got made out that the JB guys made the wrong choice. Last time I checked we did'nt have any JB guys on here, so we really don't know the backstory on why the union got shot down.

I just didn't like the implication of "no union, no jumpseat".

 

[jtrain609]

Yes....and a CSA and an Ops Agent. So it yeah it makes me a ignorant ground pounder but I still know what airline mgmt. is capable of doing.

jtrain...u know I respest your opinion, but my whole problem with "part" of this thread is that it got made out that the JB guys made the wrong choice. Last time I checked we did'nt have any JB guys on here, so we really don't know the backstory on why the union got shot down.

I just didn't like the implication of "no union, no jumpseat".

We do, actually. Fins Up shows up every once in a while around here.

 

[USMCmech]

He's not being an ####### just to be an #######, he's trying to tell you something that you're missing, have been missing, and will probably continue to miss because of your righteous indignation.

I agree that the pro union crowd is generally correct. However, the tone of many of your arguments tends to make many dismiss your valid points.

 

[jtrain609]

At a point, thems the breaks eh

 

[kellwolf]

Yes....and a CSA and an Ops Agent. So it yeah it makes me a ignorant ground pounder but I still know what airline mgmt. is capable of doing.

jtrain...u know I respest your opinion, but my whole problem with "part" of this thread is that it got made out that the JB guys made the wrong choice. Last time I checked we did'nt have any JB guys on here, so we really don't know the backstory on why the union got shot down.

I just didn't like the implication of "no union, no jumpseat".

Yeah. I was a ramper and a CSA. Once for a union airline, once for a non-union airline. NEITHER prepared me for the colossal screw job management tries to hand me on a daily basis as a pilot. Just like most pilots out there don't know what it's like to be a ramper, the reverse is also true.

 

[ppragman]

You: Bus driver.

Velo: Retired military, union leadership at his airline, 737 captain.

He's not being an ####### just to be an #######, he's trying to tell you something that you're missing, have been missing, and will probably continue to miss because of your righteous indignation.

As much as I hate to contribute to this #### slinging fest, which will probably degenerate into the mind numbing topics section.

Your 14 months as an express jet FO hardly make you the wise sage you some times purport to be, yet you bash anyone with a different opinion. You know I've got your back if you want to head north to get back into flying, and you know I think what your doing with Law and your aspirations are honorable, but man, sometimes you get more flies with honey.

 

[A320_DUDE]

As much as I hate to contribute to this #### slinging fest, which will probably degenerate into the mind numbing topics section.

Your 14 months as an express jet FO hardly make you the wise sage you some times purport to be, yet you bash anyone with a different opinion. You know I've got your back if you want to head north to get back into flying, and you know I think what your doing with Law and your aspirations are honorable, but man, sometimes you get more flies with honey.

Not for nothing, I give Jtrain his props and his "14 months" as an expressjet FO does make him a "wise sage" compared to me. I have nothing against Velo either....maybe once I get to their level my ideas will have changed and maybe not. I just think the JB pilots did what was best for them. Are they destroying the profession....maybe. People said that about the SWA guys and now they are the highest paid 737 guys in the world....but when they started out they were kinda in the same boat the JB guys are in now.

Truthfully I like the #### slinging because sometimes stuff sticks and we all learn something from it.

The only bone I have to pick with John is this comment:

You: Bus driver.

The preferred term is "Professional Motorcoach Operator" (sorry,just being a smartass!)

 

[SIUav8er]

Bus Driver, Airline Pilot... Whats the difference?

 

[ppragman]

Bus Driver, Airline Pilot... Whats the difference?

I prefer the term "human transport specialist."

 

[Berkut]

Bus Driver, Airline Pilot... Whats the difference?

Bus drivers spend their day in a (big) van; airline pilots spend their nights in one.

 

[BobDDuck]

Are they destroying the profession....maybe. People said that about the SWA guys and now they are the highest paid 737 guys in the world....

Only because everybody else dropped their rates down to SWA, NOT because Southwest raised their rates above the rest of the industry.

You see the problem? Now you've got industry newbies thinking that SWA's pay rates are something to aspire to. 10 years from now, when the rest of the industry has been forced to drop their rates to match JetBlue and Virgin some new guy is going to comment about how they have the best Airbus pay in the world.

 

[ppragman]

Only because everybody else dropped their rates down to SWA, NOT because Southwest raised their rates above the rest of the industry.

You see the problem? Now you've got industry newbies thinking that SWA's pay rates are something to aspire to. 10 years from now, when the rest of the industry has been forced to drop their rates to match JetBlue and Virgin some new guy is going to comment about how they have the best Airbus pay in the world.

Dammed if you do dammed if you don't, something's gotta give, and people still wanna fly, so guess what, airline jocks get paid less. Sucks, but that's why I don't think I'll ever go that route.

 

[WacoFan]

Only because everybody else dropped their rates down to SWA, NOT because Southwest raised their rates above the rest of the industry.

You see the problem? Now you've got industry newbies thinking that SWA's pay rates are something to aspire to. 10 years from now, when the rest of the industry has been forced to drop their rates to match JetBlue and Virgin some new guy is going to comment about how they have the best Airbus pay in the world.

I do understand your point here and do not argue it - the rest of the industry retreated to SWA's level. That said, what is the prevailing sentiment about the fact that SWA management and pilots had a conducive enough relationship that they have been able to maintain the rates and increase them while others have had to slash wages and pensions? What credence does the SWA business model and its consistent profitability and ability to meet their obligations to their employees and shareholders have? SWA may never have had a top-tier contract prior to 9-11, but what they have had is stability for the employees and an excellent business model - how much is that worth as a pilot vs. the gross mismanagement at the legacy carriers?

I am asking these questions in good faith, not with a particular point of view. This ties into some conversations that I had with PCL, Velo and Jtrain many months ago about start-up carriers and business models.

 

[ppragman]

I do understand your point here and do not argue it - the rest of the industry retreated to SWA's level. That said, what is the prevailing sentiment about the fact that SWA management and pilots had a conducive enough relationship that they have been able to maintain the rates and increase them while others have had to slash wages and pensions? What credence does the SWA business model and its consistent profitability and ability to meet their obligations to their employees and shareholders have? SWA may never have had a top-tier contract prior to 9-11, but what they have had is stability for the employees and an excellent business model - how much is that worth as a pilot vs. the gross mismanagement at the legacy carriers?

I am asking these questions in good faith, not with a particular point of view. This ties into some conversations that I had with PCL, Velo and Jtrain many months ago about start-up carriers and business models.

For the most part, if management is making money, they are happy. If pilots are making money they are happy, and are willing to go the extra mile for management. SWA realizes this. Hell, their CEO occasionally goes down to the trenches to throw bags, the morale is fairly high from what I hear. By combining a good business model with respect for their employees the company makes even more money, and is envied by all in the industry. When you're envied, your stock price rises, making even more money for you. That's what the legacies don't understand. Northwest shafted their mechanics hard a while back, and the repurcussions were enormous. Treat your employees right, and guess what, a union will never form. Start to show some disrespect, and you'll get smacked!

 

[Hacker15e]

It will be interesting to see what happens over the next 5-10 years with JetBlue.

If the company remains alive, or even better is successful, what would that mean for the airline management vs pilots argument.

What IF at this one company, all of the mayhem and chaos that pro-union people predict (more correctly, assure) will happen doesn't happen?

What if they don't continue to have lousy wages?

What if they're able to work with management to have decent work rules? What if they are not exploited when their contracts are renewed?

Velo, Train, PCL, I know your guys' position, and I accept that you predict that the worst will happen.

But what if it doesn't?

 

[ppragman]

It will be interesting to see what happens over the next 5-10 years with JetBlue.

If the company remains alive, or even better is successful, what would that mean for the airline management vs pilots argument.

What IF at this one company, all of the mayhem and chaos that pro-union people predict (more correctly, assure) will happen doesn't happen?

What if they don't continue to have lousy wages?

What if they're able to work with management to have decent work rules? What if they are not exploited when their contracts are renewed?

Velo, Train, PCL, I know your guys' position, and I accept that you predict that the worst will happen.

But what if it doesn't?

That'd be a good thing, but people would still call them scabs for not being a union shop, even though its a good place to work. The argument for ALPA/UNION X/Etc. will be undermined in a lot of ways, but probably not too much.

Look at Lynden Air Cargo, they're not union, and they have some of the best pay and duty in the industry (APC gives you hourly rates, not the rates plus the profit sharing and bonuses, so the APC rates are wildly underinflated), they're cargo only, but its still a big bird they're driving along. The next step is NAC, where guys are making a bit less than the AK Airlines 737 capts. to drive them, but its a job they enjoy, has them home in bed everynight (every night) and they have a long and excellent history.

 

[FlyChicaga]

Only because everybody else dropped their rates down to SWA, NOT because Southwest raised their rates above the rest of the industry.

You see the problem? Now you've got industry newbies thinking that SWA's pay rates are something to aspire to. 10 years from now, when the rest of the industry has been forced to drop their rates to match JetBlue and Virgin some new guy is going to comment about how they have the best Airbus pay in the world.

This begs the question, did SWA have low payrates that others had to come down to? Or, did the legacies have unrealistic payscales that "rightsized" and came down to a more realistic level with SWA?

It appears to me the SWA pilots make a lot of money.