Italian fighter jets broke sound barrier to intercept Air France Boeing 777 to Paris

[MikeD]

Dude, we have wheels on the OUTSIDE of our airplane with the gear UP! Air-to air isn't really the point. My job is moving mud. If I have to do DACT, I'm landing and finding the nearest Hornet or C-model Eagle guy and punching him in the junk. The good news is if I go low they're never catching me.

Are there any Marine Hornets mission capable?

I've done LOTS of KIWA ops. The blast off would be funner, but we're a bit handcuffed by the Class B. I've also done EVEN MORE KILM Ops. They're east and west coast analogues for KNKT and KNYL. I'd enjoy a meet and greet with any of you guys when we're out and about. The bar at the KIWA FBO is a nice touch. The planespotters on the knoll there are a little extra sometimes, but it's nice to see people interested.

My stomping grounds. Lemme know when you're in the NYL/IWA/DMA area. You can come talk to a fellow slowpoke mud mover. Although, compared to my Hog, your Harrier may as well be a Viper speed-wise. If my A-10 was in the USMC, they'd probably be the resurrection of the VMO squadrons, as opposed to the VMA squadrons.

Last time I saw a Harrier at IWA.....well, almost there......as it had been dumped SW of there on the Gila River reservation after the engine decided to no longer want to play.

 

[MikeD]

Unforgiving is a gigantic understatement. Modern VSTOL aviation stands upon the shoulders of some extremely brave individuals. We an approximate A characteristics in the B in VSTOL. I don't think the F35B guys can ever understand that on a visceral level.

As for nimble and quick, the A can out-run the B because of the B's bubble canopy, but a B can turn inside an A's circle. The B's latest Pegasus is also disgustingly bigger than the A's.

I remember A/Cs at NYL, they're about the size of an A-4, as compared to a B model Harrier. Like the Skyhawk, a jet you don't get strapped into, but one that you strap to your back

 

[Lawman]

The A model Harrier was the true compact sports car model as compared to the current B models. Nimble, quick, and unforgiving.

Unforgiving is a gigantic understatement. Modern VSTOL aviation stands upon the shoulders of some extremely brave individuals. We an approximate A characteristics in the B in VSTOL. I don't think the F35B guys can ever understand that on a visceral level.

As for nimble and quick, the A can out-run the B because of the B's bubble canopy, but a B can turn inside an A's circle. The B's latest Pegasus is also disgustingly bigger than the A's.

Oh that’s exactly what he was saying. Plus since you are perpetually wearing tanks goodby any chance at getting any kind of aggressive after the merge.

Still... you guys are the same people sticking an AIM-9 on an already slow power limited helicopter and telling it “good luck.”


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The tanks are one button away from gone under the right conditions. I have 9X and AMRAAM now (which your acquaintance didn't have) so I'll turn if I have to. Still not my job, though.

I am a stranger in a strange land in the helicopter world. I assume you mean the Y-model Cobra. I don't think you'll see them carrying too many sidewinders.


[/threadjack]

Both the W and the Z can pack the AIM-9.

The real question is why? And in what world should they have too. That’s a big damn missile for my helicopter, let alone theirs.

More important question is what crappy situation is so bad you need helicopters armed for an air to air fight they largely won’t have any idea they are a part of until well after it’s all over. And if the argument is the whole “well you guys can use it to hunt drones” I can’t begin to tell the people that think that how bad the results will be.

Main thing is what idiot in a program office put that requirement on paper and then demanded time and more importantly dollars be dedicated to it. There is a laundry list of things the Cobra needs before an Air to Air capability even broaches page 1 of the list.


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[Flyinthrew]

Both the W and the Z can pack the AIM-9.

The real question is why? And in what world should they have too. That’s a big damn missile for my helicopter, let alone theirs.

More important question is what crappy situation is so bad you need helicopters armed for an air to air fight they largely won’t have any idea they are a part of until well after it’s all over. And if the argument is the whole “well you guys can use it to hunt drones” I can’t begin to tell the people that think that how bad the results will be.

Main thing is what idiot in a program office put that requirement on paper and then demanded time and more importantly dollars be dedicated to it. There is a laundry list of things the Cobra needs before an Air to Air capability even broaches page 1 of the list.


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Eh, Cobras are made to punch holes in tanks. I'm thinking that the winder and IR Maverick probably have the same umbilical and cooling(Raytheon) and it was just a cheap add-on. I guess if you were gonna go left to left with a Hind in the Fulda Gap you'd want a sweet heater to pump into it...I guess.

Haven't heard the drone hunting thing. Methinks they're too cold for most heaters, but that's a SWAG.

 

[MikeD]

Didn't the Corps take the AIM-9, turn it into an air-ground missile and call it the Sidearm? Mini-sized ARM for turning helos into SEAD platforms.

 

[MikeD]

One Harrier I remember at IWA.....

 

[Lawman]

Both the W and the Z can pack the AIM-9.

The real question is why? And in what world should they have too. That’s a big damn missile for my helicopter, let alone theirs.

More important question is what crappy situation is so bad you need helicopters armed for an air to air fight they largely won’t have any idea they are a part of until well after it’s all over. And if the argument is the whole “well you guys can use it to hunt drones” I can’t begin to tell the people that think that how bad the results will be.

Main thing is what idiot in a program office put that requirement on paper and then demanded time and more importantly dollars be dedicated to it. There is a laundry list of things the Cobra needs before an Air to Air capability even broaches page 1 of the list.


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Eh, Cobras are made to punch holes in tanks. I'm thinking that the winder and IR Maverick probably have the same umbilical and cooling(Raytheon) and it was just a cheap add-on. I guess if you were gonna go left to left with a Hind in the Fulda Gap you'd want a sweet heater to pump into it...I guess.

Haven't heard the drone hunting thing. Methinks they're too cold for most heaters, but that's a SWAG.

Oh it’s been validated. You won’t spot a quad copter or some little electric driven thing like that, but something akin to Shadow or Hunter where you get into actual gas piston engines.... no problem seeing them. It’s basically a small lawnmower engine with no thought put into shielding it’s heat since it’s air cooled. But that’s the point of low cost drones. Keeping them low cost.

Bigger thing is the same problem as air to air.... you’re sending a helicopter.... with no radar on a visual wild goose chase for something the size of a Vespa scooter with wings. And attack helicopters don’t exactly have a cockpit set up to the idea of great visibility anywhere but right down the nose where the guns and rockets are all pointed.

Sitting in the back of an Apache is almost like sitting in a bank truck with all the structure and crap in the way. Which is why most of the time I’ve seen a drone it’s when they scare the crap out of me passing within a few hundred meters.



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[Lawman]

Didn't the Corps take the AIM-9, turn it into an air-ground missile and call it the Sidearm? Mini-sized ARM for turning helos into SEAD platforms.

Yes, but from the 1 guy I know that actually used one in testing it was essentially a revenge weapon. The range on it was short enough that you were within the WEZ of any system you would potentially use it on.

Plan must have been wait for #2 to explode, turn down that contrail, launch and hope it gets there before he moves on to killing you.

That’s not much of a SEAD plan. Though it beats some of the idiocy I’ve seen lately in planning exercises.


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[MikeD]

Yes, but from the 1 guy I know that actually used one in testing it was essentially a revenge weapon. The range on it was short enough that you were within the WEZ of any system you would potentially use it on.

Plan must have been wait for #2 to explode, turn down that contrail, launch and hope it gets there before he moves on to killing you.

That’s not much of a SEAD plan. Though it beats some of the idiocy I’ve seen lately in planning exercises.


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If it's the same range as an AIM-9, then it's pretty much nothing. Shooting the thing from inside the WEZ of anything 14.5 on up.

 

[Lawman]

Yes, but from the 1 guy I know that actually used one in testing it was essentially a revenge weapon. The range on it was short enough that you were within the WEZ of any system you would potentially use it on.

Plan must have been wait for #2 to explode, turn down that contrail, launch and hope it gets there before he moves on to killing you.

That’s not much of a SEAD plan. Though it beats some of the idiocy I’ve seen lately in planning exercises.


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If it's the same range as an AIM-9, then it's pretty much nothing. Shooting the thing from inside the WEZ of anything 14.5 on up.

Yeah. Heart is in the right place, but in some ways this seems like a bad idea because it could be used to justify the pushback against allocating dedicated SEAD like the same fight we face in the Army. “You’re a Corp/Division asset so we just assume you get Divisions HIMARs”.... except no that doesn’t happen because they have a whole list of other jobs that out prioritized me... but it could happen, so no Harm shooters for you today.


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[FlyingAccountant]

Dude, we have wheels on the OUTSIDE of our airplane with the gear UP! Air-to air isn't really the point. My job is moving mud. If I have to do DACT, I'm landing and finding the nearest Hornet or C-model Eagle guy and punching him in the junk. The good news is if I go low they're never catching me.



I've done LOTS of KIWA ops. The blast off would be funner, but we're a bit handcuffed by the Class B. I've also done EVEN MORE KILM Ops. They're east and west coast analogues for KNKT and KNYL. I'd enjoy a meet and greet with any of you guys when we're out and about. The bar at the KIWA FBO is a nice touch. The planespotters on the knoll there are a little extra sometimes, but it's nice to see people interested.

Yeah, Barrio. I may or may not be there on a pretty regular basis. You're right about the spotters, they're almost as much fun to watch as the planes themselves.

We get a pretty eclectic mix of traffic in there. Celebs in their private jets, med helo and fixed wing guys, all of the flight school kids, manufacturer test articles, and various military stuff. Bombardier sends their stuff down here and the Mitsubishi MRJ was here for a month last summer. I think at one point last season, we had all three of the DC10 fire tankers operating out of there.

 

[MikeD]

Yeah, Barrio. I may or may not be there on a pretty regular basis. You're right about the spotters, they're almost as much fun to watch as the planes themselves.

We get a pretty eclectic mix of traffic in there. Celebs in their private jets, med helo and fixed wing guys, all of the flight school kids, manufacturer test articles, and various military stuff. Bombardier sends their stuff down here and the Mitsubishi MRJ was here for a month last summer. I think at one point last season, we had all three of the DC10 fire tankers operating out of there.

I still remember when it was just T-37s, T-38s, and F-5s. With the auxiliary field for the T-37s at Headpin/Coolidge.

 

[Cptnchia]

I've also done EVEN MORE KILM Ops.

Hey, when you’re in KILM, let me know. I’m only about 20 minutes away from the field. If I’m in town, rounds on me!

 

[NovemberEcho]

Sitting in the back of an Apache is almost like sitting in a bank truck with all the structure and crap in the way. Which is why most of the time I’ve seen a drone it’s when they scare the crap out of me passing within a few hundred meters.

Israel used an Apache to down the Iranian drone.

I always figured the AIM-9 was for the stray Hind or Frogfoot to be found over the German plains. One of those better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it?

 

[deadstick]

More important question is what crappy situation is so bad you need helicopters armed for an air to air fight they largely won’t have any idea they are a part of until well after it’s all over. And if the argument is the whole “well you guys can use it to hunt drones” I can’t begin to tell the people that think that how bad the results will be.

If you’re fighting a drug cartel that has it’s own AH6...

 

[Lawman]

Sitting in the back of an Apache is almost like sitting in a bank truck with all the structure and crap in the way. Which is why most of the time I’ve seen a drone it’s when they scare the crap out of me passing within a few hundred meters.

Israel used an Apache to down the Iranian drone.

I always figured the AIM-9 was for the stray Hind or Frogfoot to be found over the German plains. One of those better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it?

They also didn’t use a Sidewinder. They used a L7 Hellfire (radar guided). Which is wasteful enough but it’s worse with AIM-9. Sidewinder is a 200 lbs missile.

That’s 2 Hellfires you aren’t taking to the fight, and in the case of the Cobra (especially the W and earlier models), that’s a lot of not my job you’re bringing with you and leaving actual job tools behind for.

Same reason we stopped the Stinger ATA package on our helicopters. Weight/dollars/training dedicated to a non type critical mission taking away from the real mission needs to be evaluated a lot better than it unfortunately is.

It’d be like if they came out and said “we’re gonna give you an anti ship capability with missile _____.” Is just be dumbfounded going “what about my better sight and self protection suite we’ve been screaming to get?”


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[ahw01]

Liking the Harrier bur could do with one of these

 

[Lawman]

Liking the Harrier bur could do with one of these

I’m half convinced the people designing that plane didn’t want to actually build it and kept making it uglier and uglier attempting to get it cancelled only to end up with the worlds weirdest looking fighter.


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[SurferLucas]

I’m half convinced the people designing that plane didn’t want to actually build it and kept making it uglier and uglier attempting to get it cancelled only to end up with the worlds weirdest looking fighter.


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Ugly as she might have been...that airplane had some blistering performance.

 

[Lawman]

I’m half convinced the people designing that plane didn’t want to actually build it and kept making it uglier and uglier attempting to get it cancelled only to end up with the worlds weirdest looking fighter.


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Ugly as she might have been...that airplane had some blistering performance.

That rule applies pretty universally outside planes as well.

It’s because the ugly ones have too.


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