Is my math right?

Chief Captain

Chief Captain

Well-Known Member
Here’s the plan. I’ve got 130hr right now, and I need a CPL with a multi addon, as well as my instrument rating. My plan is to do the CPL Single, then right afterwards, do the CPL/multi checkride. I’ve put this together by looking at the requirements of part 61.

I realize that it's unrealistic to budget for the absolute minimum time for training, but I'd like to get a feel for the minimum cost involved.

Would somebody be kind enough to look at these numbers for me, and let me know if I’m missing anything?


C172: $92/hr Twin : $192/hr Instructor: $48/hr


I’ve got 130hrs, with 50hr PIC cross country. Here’s what I figure I’ll have to do:

1.)Training (all dual time)

a.) Instrument rating:

Dual (15)………………………......……$2100
250nm xcountry (5h)………………..$700

b.) CPL:

Instrument (10)……………….………$1400
Maneuvers (5)………...……………..$700
Complex* (10)…………….…...…….$2400

*Complex time will be done in a complex twin

Day x-country (2)……………………..$280
Night x-country (2)……………………$280

CPL Test prep (3)………………...……$276



2.) Solo time

300nm x-country (5)…………………..$460
Night flying (5)…………………...……..$460
Practice maneuvers (5)……………...$460


Total for CPL/multi requirements = 67hr……$9516

Current time = 130hr

Time left over = 250-(130+67) = 53hr

I’ll split the 53 hrs with somebody to save some cash.

At $92/hr……………………………….$2438


Total cost to CPL with multi addon = $11954

If I figure in books and examiners, I’ll say I need $15000

Here's a link to the FAA

§ 61.129 Aeronautical experience.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...&node=14:2.0.1.1.2&idno=14#14:2.0.1.1.2.6.1.5

Thanks in advance for any help I get!
 
Looks good for the min time needed, but we all know how that really works! I would put an extra 5k on that for a little wiggle room. I can honestly tell you that 15 hours dual won't get you the IR ticket. Other than that it all looks pretty good.

Good luck
 
I just finished a guy up on his IFR rating, it took 35 hours. He's a former Navy Seal, Electrical Engineer, and works R&D for Nissan. Basically he's as sharp as they come and did most things right the first time. Count on adding at least 10-15% onto your minimums then re-calculate. The worst thing to do with your training is to come up with a budget, implement it, and then run out of cash leading to a stall in your training.
 
One of the many things I have learned from being in school for a long time now is that you will ALWAYS need more money. I've have seen soooooo many people rack up $30-50K only to wash out because they can't get anymore money. You numbers look VERY low. 15hrs for instrument?!?!?! I don't think so. I'm not saying it can't be done, but wow..that's extremely low hrs. for an inst. rating. Good luck to ya!
 
Thanks guys.

As I said, I don't expect to be there at the bare minimums, I'll add a buffer, but I wanted to make sure it would work. I wanted to ensure that I hadn't missed x hours of something somewhere, or I accidentally combined 2 categories.

Another question, I'm required to do instrument work (10hr) for the commercial. Can my initial IFR training cover that 10hrs and save me some money?
 
Chief Captain said:
Another question, I'm required to do instrument work (10hr) for the commercial. Can my initial IFR training cover that 10hrs and save me some money?
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Part 61, yes, if you went with a 141 program you'd have to get the Chief to credit you which is pretty much up to them.
 
Like the others budgeting for bare minimums plus a little is a surefire recipe for getting 2/3 of the way done and running out of cash. A few concerns about your estimate:

Chief Captain said:
a.) Instrument rating:

Dual (15)………………………......……$2100
250nm xcountry (5h)………………..$700
Click to expand...
I don't see the required 40 hours of instrument time factored in here. Realistically plan for at least 30 hours of dual received for this. The remaining hours required can be done with a safety pilot.

Chief Captain said:
b.) CPL:

Instrument (10)……………….………$1400
Maneuvers (5)………...……………..$700
Complex* (10)…………….…...…….$2400

*Complex time will be done in a complex twin
Click to expand...
Are you doing the initial commercial certificate ride in a single or a Multi? If you are doing it in a single then the 10 hours complex time is wasted in a twin, when you could use that time practicing maneuvers. 5 hours is generally not near enough to learn all the maneuvers to proficiency.


Chief Captain said:
Current time = 130hr

Time left over = 250-(130+67) = 53hr
Click to expand...
you are lumping single and multi into your 250 required. you must do one or the other first for the commercial certificate then add the other one on after you have the 250 and the certificate. Not to say you can't do the training as part of your 250, but you will absolutely be over 250 to get both.

Chief Captain said:
I’ll split the 53 hrs with somebody to save some cash.

At $92/hr……………………………….$2438
Click to expand...
Be very careful "splitting" time. Legally you may only log the time you are under the hood, or when the other pilot is under the hood. I have seen a few examiners reject applicants when they did not adequately explain "split" time in their logbooks that they were counting towards their 250. A few hours here and there is no problem. But having a solid 53 hours; one fifth of your total time, will surely raise some question marks. Not to mention the questions that will get you in an airline interview further down the road.
 
Chief Captain said:
Another question, I'm required to do instrument work (10hr) for the commercial. Can my initial IFR training cover that 10hrs and save me some money?
Click to expand...

Yes and no. Your instrument training can cover the "instrument" portion of that requirement, but you will still need 20 hrs of instruction for the commercial certificate. Here's a clip from the FAA's Aeronautical Experience Checklist:

Commercial Pilot Certification

NOTE 4: Applicants for a commercial pilot certificate with the airplane single engine, airplane multiengine, helicopter, gyroplane, or powered-lift ratings and who already holds an instrument rating that is appropriate to the category and class rating sought are not required to accomplish an additional “. . . 10 hours of instrument training . . .” as stated in § 61.129(a)(3)(i); § 61.129(b)(3)(i); § 61.129(c)(3)(i); § 61.129(d)(3)(i); and § 61.129(e)(3)(i). However, the required commercial pilot training hour requirements [i.e., ". . . on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127 . . ."] of 20 hours in § 61.129(a)(3), (b)(3), (c)(3), (d)(3), and (e)(3) cannot be reduced to 10 hours.
 
I don't see the required 40 hours of instrument time factored in here. Realistically plan for at least 30 hours of dual received for this. The remaining hours required can be done with a safety pilot.

I've done 25 hours under the hood with a safety pilot, so after 15 hrs, I should be fine (if I'm ready at 15 hours!).

Are you doing the initial commercial certificate ride in a single or a Multi? If you are doing it in a single then the 10 hours complex time is wasted in a twin

You've confused me a bit here. My plan is to do the single CPL, and then do my multi rating and checkride a few days later. That's what somebody told me he did...Why would the time be wasted? If I do it in a complex twin, I'll have the complex requirement, as well as the instruction for the multi rating. What am I missing?

you are lumping single and multi into your 250 required.

I thought I'd be able to do that. Since the regs state a total hour requirement, why wouldn't this be allowed?

I have seen a few examiners reject applicants when they did not adequately explain "split" time in their logbooks that they were counting towards their 250.

Very interesting. Do you have any more details on that? how did they not explain it? I'd like to know, because it would be unfortunate if that happens. Do airlines really ask about that? I imagine that you'd have a few hundred hours at the regional interview. Will they go THAT far back in your logbook?

Sorry for all the questions, but you provided a really detailed response (that I appreciate VERY much)!
 
Nihon_Ni said:
Yes and no. Your instrument training can cover the "instrument" portion of that requirement, but you will still need 20 hrs of instruction for the commercial certificate. Here's a clip from the FAA's Aeronautical Experience Checklist:

Commercial Pilot Certification

However, the required commercial pilot training hour requirements [i.e., ". . . on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127 . . ."] of 20 hours in § 61.129(a)(3), (b)(3), (c)(3), (d)(3), and (e)(3) cannot be reduced to 10 hours.
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Thanks Nihon. I didn't realize that one.
 
"I have seen a few examiners reject applicants when they did not adequately explain "split" time in their logbooks that they were counting towards their 250"

I think you need to be able to quote chapter and verse of why "splitting time" is legal and then reference your logbook as to how you did it. There is really no question that it's legal, but you need to be able to explain it to the Nth degree.
 
DE727UPS said:
"I have seen a few examiners reject applicants when they did not adequately explain "split" time in their logbooks that they were counting towards their 250"

I think you need to be able to quote chapter and verse of why "splitting time" is legal and then reference your logbook as to how you did it. There is really no question that it's legal, but you need to be able to explain it to the Nth degree.
Click to expand...

If he asks how 2 people managed PIC at the same time, I'll say "you're the expert on the regs...you tell me:D"



Seriously though, thanks DE. I'll make sure to be ready for that question.
 
Chief Captain said:
I've done 25 hours under the hood with a safety pilot, so after 15 hrs, I should be fine (if I'm ready at 15 hours!).
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I see, but again realize that the majority of students are not anywhere near ready at 15 hours. I had 17 at my checkride and to be honest I passed because my instructor spent that 17 hours grooming me for that particular examiners checkride. I had to learn instrument stuff the hard way, screwing things up while on an instrument flight plan. Fortunately it was never bad enough to cause a violation or accident; but looking back now I really knew nothing. Most of my students are ready between 25-30 hours with me.

Chief Captain said:
You've confused me a bit here. My plan is to do the single CPL, and then do my multi rating and checkride a few days later. That's what somebody told me he did...Why would the time be wasted? If I do it in a complex twin, I'll have the complex requirement, as well as the instruction for the multi rating. What am I missing?
Click to expand...
If you are doing the single first then your 10 required hours in a complex airplane will be satisfied in your required training for the Commercial Certificate because you will be doing the training in the type of airplane you will be flying on the checkride (unless you are nuts :nana2:) which must be complex.

You can do your multi training prior to the 250 and it still counts and all that, but your training in the single engine complex will satisfy the requirements.

Chief Captain said:
I thought I'd be able to do that. Since the regs state a total hour requirement, why wouldn't this be allowed?
Click to expand...
In order to do an add on you must first have a Commercial Certificate, single or multi. To have the commercial certificate you must have 250 total hours. You definitely can do the training in both prior to the 250, but you must have one before the other. I have heard of people doing them on the same day, but it is not common. So while it may not be much more than 250, it will be more.

Chief Captain said:
Very interesting. Do you have any more details on that? how did they not explain it? I'd like to know, because it would be unfortunate if that happens.
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From what the examiner told me a few applicants have had just barely 250 by a few hours and he found things like logged actual instrument time that was also listed as safety pilot time, or approaches logged as safety pilot. He subtracted that time and the applicant did not have the required 250. He told me that the FSDO wants them to be looking for things like that.

On my Commercial checkride the examiner went through every page in my logbook. He asked me about quite a few of the entries.

I'm not saying you can't legally and legitimately do it, just know what you are allowed to log and that when the foggles come off, you can no longer log time as a safety pilot. There is never a flight that you can log the total duration as safety pilot because of taxi, run up, takeoff, and landing. For my students I will typically deduct 2 or 3 tenths off the total flight duration to adjust for that. What I did was have the guy that is under the foggles pay for the flight, then he would act as safety pilot for me on the next flight and I paid for the whole flight.

Chief Captain said:
Do airlines really ask about that? I imagine that you'd have a few hundred hours at the regional interview. Will they go THAT far back in your logbook?
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Yes they will go through your logbook; thoroughly. They are hiring you to haul people in multi million dollar aircraft; a very high liability business.

Chief Captain said:
Sorry for all the questions, but you provided a really detailed response (that I appreciate VERY much)!
Click to expand...
No problem; keep asking.
 
You can do your multi training prior to the 250 and it still counts and all that, but your training in the single engine complex will satisfy the requirements.

The whole point in doing the complex training in a multi is that I'll save money. Instead of renting a newer, more expensive airplane, I'll spend the money on the multi instruction that I'll need anyway.

You definitely can do the training in both prior to the 250, but you must have one before the other.

I intend to do the CPL single on one day then a multi addon a few days later.

Sorry if I'm being a bit slow here, but I'm really not seeing where the problem lies. Thanks for the help.
 
Look, I know money will be/is tight. But try to have fun flying. I've flown with a number of FOs who would say, "I hated being a student pilot; I hated being a CFI; I hated 135 flying; I hate being a regional FO; but things will be better when I get to the majors." Heck, find someone to do some spins in an aerobatic airplane. Find some crusty old guy with a J-3 and get some tail wheel time. Find a school with a Great Lakes and fly around in an open cockpit bi-blane. Flying should be an enjoyable experience.
 
Chief Captain said:
The whole point in doing the complex training in a multi is that I'll save money. Instead of renting a newer, more expensive airplane, I'll spend the money on the multi instruction that I'll need anyway.
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If you are doing the multi first then it is a non issue

Chief Captain said:
I intend to do the CPL single on one day then a multi addon a few days later.

Sorry if I'm being a bit slow here, but I'm really not seeing where the problem lies. Thanks for the help.
Click to expand...
your plan sounds good, just that I see a lot of guys thinking that they can get single and multi right at 250, not understanding that you must first have 250 before you can even apply for the certificate and don't factor in any additional flying or paying for the plane on the checkride itself. I saw one guy get to the checkride, fail it, then had no money at all to fly more and finish it.
 
Thanks. I think we're finally on the same page now. I realize that I'll need to have the CPL-SEL certificate in hand before I get the CPL-MEL. Thanks again for all the help.
 
One other option for you to consider.

You can do your 10 hrs of complex training in a mulitengine and apply that to your single engine initial CPL. You can even do your complex proficiency demo (on your CSEPL practical) in a twin. The only catch is the DPE will have to agree to be the PIC unless you hold a PMEL. If you read the PTS carefully, you'll see it doesn't say anything about the number of engines on a complex airplane, only that it's an "airplane" and "complex." (I think the FAA's old FAQs addressed this.) Talk it over with your CFI and DPE. If they won't go along with it, then it doesn't matter that the FAA will allow you to do this option.

When I was training for my CPL, I owned a Grumman Yankee. As a means of satisfying the 10 hr complex training, I flew a twin since it wasn't that much more to rent a twin instead of a complex single, and I really didn't need 10 hrs of instruction to learn what to do with the prop & gear levers. When it came time for my CSEL test, the DPE wouldn't agree to be the PIC of the twin, so I did a day of training in a PA-28R to get ready for the test. (It flies just like a Seminole, so the transition was easy.) On test day, I flew the DPE around the traffic pattern twice in the Arrow and did the rest of the test in my Yankee. At the end of the test I had about 2 hrs in the Arrow.
 
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