Is it true?
- Thread starter Seggy
- Start date
So they just expect that of First Officers. GREAT start to CRM class!
In the sense of what they strive to create and the general mindset they seem to want to gear their folks to, a long winded way of saying "be professional". At least thats what I read.
Now, here's how to bring that professionalism to the flight deck and be a team member, is what CRM should cover.
Just seems like one of many ways to teach effective CRM. All leading to the same goal of safe and effective crew ops. Is a creed like that required? No, not at all. Is it hugely detrimental? No, not when placed into proper perspective. Would I have paid $$$ to have someone write that into the manual? No.
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
OMG, I am so buying a few of these. Fantastic stocking stuffers, I might sell the place out.
But I can tell you, based on the screen shots, I question the entire video. Not a single one was sporting a mustache.
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
Frankly it seems clear to me that I guess it is something that needs to be covered. "Occasionally late"?? Seriously??
I guess I was raised with a different mindset. NSDQ. TOT +-30 seconds. Imagine how a large organization would run if everyone was "occasionally late". The pilots would be "occasionally late"; the FAs would be "occasionally late"; the gate agent... Occasionally late. The baggage handler... Occasionally late. The mechanic... The rampers... The front office people. Heck, payroll occasionally late? It happens man. An airline would fall apart or start operating like GoJet.
Now do things happen? Sure. But in my years of airline flying I can count the times I've been late on one hand and have fingers left over. I also took steps to make sure it didn't happen again, such as a backup to an alarm clock, and was also honest on the delay code. Unlike some operations. "Flight delayed due to captain's failure to close the door on time." Yeah I didn't close the door. I couldn't because the jetway was still attached to the airplane because no rampers could be found to disconnect the ground power.
I guess I was raised with a different mindset. NSDQ. TOT +-30 seconds. Imagine how a large organization would run if everyone was "occasionally late". The pilots would be "occasionally late"; the FAs would be "occasionally late"; the gate agent... Occasionally late. The baggage handler... Occasionally late. The mechanic... The rampers... The front office people. Heck, payroll occasionally late? It happens man. An airline would fall apart or start operating like GoJet.
Now do things happen? Sure. But in my years of airline flying I can count the times I've been late on one hand and have fingers left over. I also took steps to make sure it didn't happen again, such as a backup to an alarm clock, and was also honest on the delay code. Unlike some operations. "Flight delayed due to captain's failure to close the door on time." Yeah I didn't close the door. I couldn't because the jetway was still attached to the airplane because no rampers could be found to disconnect the ground power.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
Your opinion is noted. However, there is an entire segment of professional aviation that does this. There are a lot of instructors that do this, and a lot of students that learn from it.
The art is in the reconstruction of what happened, the analysis of why, and the application of an instructional fix. It actually works extremely well, even "an hour or two" later.
KLB
Well-Known Member
Sometimes stuff happens. I typically head out the door for my commute to work to be at work 10 to 15 minutes prior to show time. Well occasionally I run into heavy traffic that may have me 5 to 10 minutes late. It happens. My commute takes 30 minutes. The other guys I fly with have a 1.5hr commute. I don't really freak out if they are 20 minutes to half an hour late sometimes. South Florida traffic sucks....it sucks bad! I do my best to have much of both our duties done so that the ship is ready to roll when the boss shows up. It's part of being a good crew member.
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
Not sure who you work for, but do this at just about any 121 carrier more than 4 times a year and you can be terminated. And there is no covering- you duty in or you don't. You show 45-60 minutes prior to the first flight. If you are 20-30 minutes late the flight leaves late.
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KLB
Well-Known Member
I have to be at work 1.5hrs prior to departure. We only really need 45 minutes to get the plane ready. It's a different ball game on the corporate side.
I'm a fan of punctuality. Being on time and dependable has gotten me many promotions in my career, but we all have those days where we may be late for reasons out of our control.
You could get rear ended on your way to work. Should you be fired for that?
One of the other guys has emergency gallbladder surgery yesterday and I'm covering for him. Is that a fireable offense?
I think that's what we're getting at when we say stuff happens.
Cruise
Well-Known Member
99% of the job is showing up to work on time, dressed for "gym" and ready to perform.
Earlier on in my tenure as Grand Poobah, I had a copilot who I think kept 'testing' me because I don't think he felt the cockpit seating arrangement was correct, if you know what I mean.
But that's nothing I'm going to get bent out of shape about as I'm here to fly jets and not to carpet bomb your sociopathies and win your hearts and minds.
Pickup is at 0600, it's a full van (two crews) to the airport, but we're still missing the FO so we're technically already late. I step out of the van to the front desk to call his room on the house phone, no answer. Wonderful. Look around the lobby, nothing. At 0606 he comes down off the elevator and says, "Hey, I'm going to grab a Starbucks I'll be right there".
Oh really?
My response would be, 'sounds good.' Then I'd promptly get back in the van and say 'let's go' to the driver. The absent crew member can figure out how to get to the airport on their own at that point. If we take a delay, we take a delay, and the late crew member can tell the powers that be why we were late. This isn't kindergarten. You know when the van time is. That's departure time, not think about wandering toward the van time.
Look, we've all been late on occasion...it happens. But the attitude you possess when you're late makes a huge difference.
Be in the lobby a couple minutes early...it's not too much to ask!
KLB
Well-Known Member
Yeah. That's a different animal. It's one thing to be late. But it's totally different to wonder about. I'd leave him behind also.
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
Somewhat anecdotal, but by far, the worst students I have ever had were airline pilots. Military guys have generally been the best. "But we fly the jet this way at XYZ." "I' have an ATP, I already know everything." "I don't really need to learn that." "I don't like steep turns" "I'm scared of stalls, we aren't doing them" "Why should I look for traffic, they have TCAS." The ones that have said stuff like that, the debrief lasts as long as it takes to walk to their car, and they spend half of that time haggling over the price, because, you know, it should be free for them.
Guess what? I think they actually do have some problems with their CRM training. Not sure it is the company to blame entirely, though.
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
Getting in an accident? No. But if you know traffic sucks during the time you commute plan accordingly. Heck, my airline even has a commuter policy where I don't get dinged if my flight to work is cancelled for weather. But you know what? I'm a big boy and I actually look at the weather. If it's going to be crap I leave early, maybe even the night prior.
ComplexHiAv8r
Well-Known Member
I'm confused. I thought we were at the same shop. I didn't think we had an "official" policy, but give yourself some options.Blackhawk said:
ComplexHiAv8r
Well-Known Member
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Somewhat anecdotal but the worst passengers we have are the ones who have their certificates and ask why we didn't do a magneto check before we took off.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Your pilot group has already let it be known that help isn't needed.
ComplexHiAv8r
Well-Known Member
It wasn't for you to help, it was to get the full information on the program to get a better understanding since you have questions, and issues on what little you have seen.Seggy said:
I've been through 2 CRM programs by sister companies and IMO this is the better of the two. And the other place has some good friends and they continue to make it better.
KLB
Well-Known Member
I'm guessing you haven't driven much around South Florida. People have the most incredible ways to wreck that I've ever seen. Traffic accidents are the most likely cause of many accidents. The longer the commute and frequency of commute, the more likely you are to get caught in traffic due to an accident. Like I said, stuff happens. Some things just can't be prevented.
KLB
Well-Known Member
They likely aren't transferring what they've learned in the professional environment to the recreational flying which can be quite hazardous.
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