Is It Too Late to Look to Flying as a Career?

Hi JC Community!

I have been reading and getting a lot of interesting info from all the knowledgeable people on this site and recently registered on the site. I am one of those guys that have always dreamed of flying a plane and i have had the opportunity to fly a Cessna 172 with a friend of mine. It was so overwhelming to be at the controls but what an experience!

I am 36 years young and interested in starting to map out a plan to making my way to flying for a living. Ultimately would like to fly for an airline flying the 747, 767, 777, 787 type of aircraft (A340 and A330 included) - yes it's a long road but it's the journey that is worth it. And who knows - the path may change to another aircraft. It's a bad time for the industry (and it's volatile) and the economy just now. I understand this but I have to try. I also understand from my reading that it's important to head in the right direction in terms of experience to get to your desired seat or costs may get out of hand.

The costs of learning to fly are quite substantial and i am interested in any ideas on how to shave costs. I am currently employed full time and I have looked to getting a loan. I also know that there are no shortcuts to experience. If i could get into some kind of dialogue about ideas that would be awesome.

I feel if i don't take the first step soon life will overtake me.
Questions to think about and opinions on the following will be most welcome:
1. Costs of FBO's vs the accelerated programmes.
2. Loans vs paying my way and the time involved.
3. # of times to fly a week and juggling ground school and personal reading and studying.
4. Ideas on how to shave costs
5. Ideas on how to get more practical knowledge i.e. - volunteering to do line work


Thanks again for taking the time and I hope to be able to contribute in the future to the community.

PS: Apologies for the length of this wordy essay!

The short answer is, No, it's not too late for a flying career.

That said, at your age, you are probably going to have to alter your expectations a bit. You are starting at an age at which most airline pilots get hired at a major airline. When the airlines were hiring, the average major airline pilot was in the mid-30's when hired. To get to the left seat of one of the aircraft you mentioned takes 25 or more years seniority AFTER you get hired. You don't have that much time, and the majors aren't even hiring. I think it is perfectly feasible that you could retire as a Captain on a 737 or its future equivalent, but I wouldn't count on the airframes you mentioned.

Flying is expensive. Accept that reality now. However there are things you can do to limit your personal costs, the most significant of which is DON'T TAKE OUT A LOAN. Save your money. Pay as you go. The neat thing about flying training is that there are several natural pauses built into it. Save your money. Earn your private pilot's license. Build some flight time, including cross country time. Save your money. Get your instrument rating. Build some more flight time. Save your money. Get your commercial pilot certificate. See a trend here? Don't think of flight training as a long expensive process, but rather has a series of steps. First your private, then instrument, then commercial, and so forth and so on.

Once you get your commercial, you now have choices in the direction you can go. You can attempt to get a job towing banners, flying skydivers, or doing pipeline patrol. None of these are verly likely, but possible. You can get a Flight Instructor-airplane certificate and get a job as an instructor (most likely chance of success), or get a commercial-multiengine rating and attempt to get a job (almost impossible).

As far as the number of times you should fly: When pursuing a rating or certification, I say as many times as you can, as often as you can, and still be prepared for the lesson. For every lesson you fly you should be prepared to spend a few hours in preparation and study. There is no reason you can't get a given certificate or rating within a month of beginning, if you have the ability and resources to study, prepare, and fly every day. You're trying to build a mental database as well as physical skills. The more often you can fly and study, the quicker you will retain those skills.

Get involved: join a local flying club, your local EAA chapter, the civil air patrol, whatever you can find. Getting involved is the hands-down best opportunity for incidental learning, networking opportunities, and professional advocacy. If your going to become a professional in this field, then you might as well start right now.

Finally, I just want to remark on a comment you made. "Yes it's a long road but it's the journey that is worth it." That sounds good to say, but the reaility is that you won't know if it was "worth it" until the day you quit flying. There are lots of people who, despite their skills or abilities, never made anything of their careers. I know one fellow who lost his medical just as he was getting to the point of being able to fly for a regional. If that happens to you, will you consider it "worth it?" Given your age, this is a relevant question. After age 50, the ranks of pilots begin to thin out. I read once that only about 40% made it to the (then) retirement age of 60.

My point here is tell you to put away any romantic notions you have about this career. Put away the leather jacket and silk scarf. This is a business. Its purpose is to make money. As a pilot, you have a role in that purpose. You should start learning how the business of aviation operates. You also have a responsibility to your professional community. If you're not prepared to accept these roles, if this is just one big flight of fancy for you, than get your private pilot license and have fun on weekends, but do something else professionally.
 
Though this has already been said, realy consider the gut check (or lack of a check) that you will receive. I don't know what field you are currently working in, but I am going to assume that it took you quite a bit to get to the level that your are at now. Same in aviation. And the older we get, the less B.S. we are willing to put up with. I work with alot of older instructors at my school (me included at 38). All of us came from other fields. And all of us took huge hits in quality of life. Going from 80K a year with full benefits and retirement to 20k with nothing,is a hit. Let alone the family side of things...

Do I regret my decision? No, not one bit. I look forward to going to work every day. But I get to fly upside down and bounce off of dirt strips. Am I going to fly for the airlines (highly doubtful, but I realy don't want to anyway). Even if I did, I know that time is not on my side.

I have been teaching now for over two years and have over 2200 hours TT. But, I am still not realy a desired commodity to the airline industry. Mostly because 2185 of that is single engine. You realy have to love aviation to want to give up alot to work in the field. There are many paths and opportunities, just don't limit yourself to the airlines. Companies are always advertising, but usually you will never have enough of the right time. Meaning 1000 multi-turbine PIC with 3000TT (example only).

Also, do not go in debt for this career. Most of us have to one extent or the other. Or if you do, keep it very managable.

Anyway, good luck. Hell, first just get through the Private and see if this is really something you feel you want to do. No one really knows, until after that point.
 
thanks all, i appreciate all the input and the words of encouragement. Skydog - thanks for your candidness. Good point about the "worth it" part. I probably expressed that wrong. It's the experience of the journey that will put me in a better place for knowing who i am and shape me - you can only learn. I have no illusions about this profession and i agree with your point on "it's a business" but then again, "it's business" that has helped get our global economy into the mess it's in - another day maybe. speaking of which, about loans, i am on the fence about the strategy to use concerning this. I liked the the comment on "responsibility to the professional community". Are there mentoring programs that are up and running?
 
jester welcome to jc!! listen to Zap, he seems to be a very knowledable fellow. Remember ITS a journey enjoy the ride.
 
My point here is tell you to put away any romantic notions you have about this career. Put away the leather jacket and silk scarf. This is a business. Its purpose is to make money. As a pilot, you have a role in that purpose. You should start learning how the business of aviation operates.

Spot on. There is reality and then there is fantasy. Romantic quotes won't help on a 16 hour duty day with 6 legs. Learn about the reality of the business, take your time getting your ratings(no rush with no jobs out there), and family/friends first. Listen to those who have walked the walk. Flying a jet is fun, but getting paid what your worth is better...
 
If I were in your shoes, I'd go to ATPs and get it done, and try to find a job now. Build time, and be ready for when the market rebounds. Your dream of flying heavy iron is a possibility, it just might take awhile. Keep in mind, if you don't try, you can't succeed.

You're 20, like me, you shouldn't be giving advice on whether to get into this business.

Not a personal attack just don't think you or I are qualified to give life advice.
 
Run, run away as fast as you can and find a job that requires much less skill and pays three times as much. The feelings you have towards aviation, it is unjustified romance from inexperience, hollywood, and all of your friends who HATE their job and think flying an airplane is a billion times better. A job is a job is a job is a job. Don't matter if you are a pilot or a porn star.

To sum it up, there is very little demand for pilots, there are too many.
 
Welcome to JC jester! While I am not as experienced or versed as many other pilots on here, I have to say that regardless of age, I think that your goals are worthwhile and attainable. I couldn't be happier that I decided to pursue flying, never is there a day I wish I hadn't. If it's your dream you have to go after it. Like some have said, there will be negatives and challenges, but that's the same in every career. Although I sometimes wish I had gotten my start earlier, because I was a little older and had a career separate from flying, I was able to afford to fly when I started. (when i started, not so much now..haha).

During my private pilot training I also started working weekends at the FBO where I was taking lessons. This drastically helped offset the cost of flying as well because I got an employee rental rate (might be something to look into as a way to cut costs). Working for the FBO also exposed me to many different types of pilots and gave me a glimpse into different career paths as well as offer me that 'real world' experience to which I believe you were referring. The greatest advice I can give is exactly the advice I received here on JC: Go for it! but be smart about it. And talk to people, meet as many other pilots as possible, you will learn so much from them. There are many paths to flying as a career, just have to find which training route and career will work best for you. Keep us posted on your progress and have fun!
 
What he said except there will never be a shortage of pilots. Never has been and never will be.
I seem to remember some deregulation start-ups running into operational problems due to pilots shortages in the 80s and maybe early 90s. When airlines don't have enough pilots, is that not a "pilot shortage"?
 
It's never to late as long as you know what you are getting into, and it's going to be a rough ride.
 
I started at 42 years young (lol) and I have a flying career. You can too. Put up pictures in your office of where you want to end up and get going. These pictures will change as your goals focus.
Read the archives on this forum, they are filled with wisdom. I would suggest doing a search from some of these users:

CalCapt
FlyChicaga
Kellwolf
Doug Taylor
Ready2fly
Velocipede
these will lead you to others who will lead you to others and so on.

I would suggest reading all of the debates on flight schools vs. FBO's

DO NOT PAY FOR A JOB . . . this would damage the industry you want to join.

good luck!
 
I bet all of us flying for a living miss that romance of flying that you experienced. Once you get the job, you will realize that it is a JOB. Looking out the window and enjoying the view while flying any heading and altitude you wish in Visual conditions will be a thing of the past. Waking up on a sunny Sunday afternoon and heading to the airport at your leisure will be a thing of the past.

You will be yanked from a deep sleep at 4am with that special ring from crew scheduling while on reserve to go fly a leg or three at a madhouse where you will spend as much time on the ground as you do in the air. Once you do get in the air, you won't have time to enjoy the view because you will be in Instrument conditions working to comply with headings and altitudes ATC gives you. You may be flying in weather that you do not like to fly in but you must because it's your job. You may be pushing 5 days away from your family but it's your job.

My point is, the pleasure you experienced flying an airplane is not what the airline business is about. Its about getting passengers from point A to point B in a fashion that makes the people above you happy no matter how you feel about it.

You must also be prepared to go thru alot of stuff to hold a thankless job where your seat has a eject button that someone at a safe warm office on the ground has their finger on at all times. You will not have a name to that person just a number and as much as they don't like to push the eject button, they won't hesitate if the bean counters show red on the balance sheet. It wont matter if you need new shoes or your rent is due.

If it sounds like I dislike my job, I don't. I am proud of what I do and I take the bad with the good. I just think you should know that it's not what you may imagine. It's like being in love with a woman who abuses you. The job will demand the utmost commitment to survive!
 
Well, I must admit, I've read some interesting things on this topic, some true some not. I started at 31 and am now in my 50's and have been a professional pilot for 18 years. I have thousands of hours of flying time, everything from single-engine cessnas to corporate jets. I have been unemployed as much if not more than employed. Aviation isn't what it used to be, in fact, years ago it was great. Since Frank Lorenzo destroyed Eastern Airlines and Reagan deregulated aviation, it's been all downhill. One person said "it's a business" and he's right. It's now run by bean-counters and lying, back-stabbing, ruthless businesss types, especially in the charter arena. Some of the "true" stories I could tell you!

Here's what you need to know, AGE IS A FACTOR!! Trust me on this. I have watched age discrimination take place right before my eyes. It's that obvious! And when I called them on it, they quickly coverd their tracks. And they are very good at covering their tracks. Two in particular, Comair and Pinnacle. Commuters and Regionals want "Young, Fresh, Meat" that they can chew up and spit out at will while paying below poverty level wages. Young, idealistic pilots with dreams and asperations are willing targets for their excuses for paying low wages in exchange for experience. I've been hearing this ALL my carreer, even after I've accumilated thousands of hours of flying time. They all sing the "we ain't got no money" blues!! Why do you think that plane went down outside of Buffalo not too long ago? Inexperience!!! They don't care! Profit is the goal and let the Insurance companies deal with the mis-haps!

The other thing that was said is "don't pay for a job"! I agree with that! However, here's the reality. For every one pilot who sticks to his guns, there are a hundred pilots who WILL PAY for a job, and the companies know it! Especially where Type-Ratings are concerned! Now, to be fair, there are many ass-hole pilots who were hired, sent for type training and took the first offer for more pay by some other company and left the first company holding the bag for the costs. This isn't fair! And I can understand why most companies no longer wish to foot the bill for type-ratings. We all have these superlative, greedy little, self indulgent a-holes for screwing the rest of us on this issue! You guys know who you are.... thank you very little!!! And while I'm on the subject of "fellow pilots" ... The Industry seems to be attracting a few too many "back-stabbers". Yes, this has become a VERY competitive industry. There are more and more pilots and fewer seats. As such, it's bringing out the worst in some pilots. There are pilots badmouthing other pilots just to get them fired so they can move into their position. It's happening more and more and all to frequently. Even when it's not true, if another pilot says your incompetant, the company has to look at it! And there's nothing you can do about it. Imagine spending upwards of $100,000 to get all your qualifications only to get blown out of the water by some slime-bag who probably is himself a lousy pilot!! Something to think about!!

Also, Ameriflight, Alpine-Air and a few others are selling right-seat time for thousands of dollars and there are no shortage of pilots with rich parents paying for it. I know, I've seen it first hand! I flew with them! It's true many of them are from other countries who come here to build time, then go back and obtain good to great paying jobs. Our corporations love these guys. It's pure profit. Unfortunatley, our corporations are pimps and we are turned into prostitutes and there's little we can do about. When you look into overseas job, which I have, they tell you "nationals first, oversea pilots last". We'll train our own 1st and only if we can't, then we'll hire overseas pilots. Wouldn't it be great if our own corporations thought that way!!

I could go on and on but I won't, it's too depressing. I agree with tempering your expectations, in fact don't have any at all! You'll be better off. Getting a left seat position in a 747 isn't impossible but the odds are the same as you becoming a famous hollywood star. It's a tough business. If you really want it, if you are really that "hell-bent" on flying for a living, you had REALLY better LOVE flying because you will pay your dues. I know I have, and in spades!!!!! And I'm still getting screwed! I'm also currently unemployed, again! There's a good chance your credit score will suffer, just from all the moving around and there will be the not being able to pay your bills syndrome. Oh, and try finding a woman who's willing to put up with hardships of you "chasing an impossible dream"!! Yes there are other jobs in niche markets. I've had those too. They don't pay much and some are actually a lot of fun! But loooong hours. If none of this puts you off, then by all means.... go for it! If any of this is even creating any doubts what so ever, then just fly for fun.

Here's what I tell young wanna-be's who ask me about flying for a living. After sharing a few of my experiences with them, I tell them,"If I had it to do all over again, I'd take the money I spent on lessons and start a business, I would have been much better off".

Do I have regrets? Yes and no. I've had some great experiences, but the jury is still out on whether it was worth it.
 
Wow, awesome post Fr8dog44! Welcome to JC, we need more people like you on here to steer my generation in the right direction :)
 
Nice post. Wish I had read something like that before I took the job flying an ERJ for pennies. Sure every industry has its problems, but damn aviation has been and will always be knee deep in problems from no hiring, low pay, pensions lost, furloughs, the list goes on and on...
 
I would suggest doing a search from some of these users:

CalCapt
FlyChicaga
Kellwolf
Doug Taylor
Ready2fly
Velocipede
these will lead you to others who will lead you to others and so on.

good luck!
I would think that bumblebee himself would be on that list... especially as a late bloomer in the aviation field. I think the Bee's having more fun with this career than even I am. :)

Bob
 
I would think that bumblebee himself would be on that list... especially as a late bloomer in the aviation field. I think the Bee's having more fun with this career than even I am. :)

Bob

You definitely belong on that list as well!
 
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