Is it even worth mentioning?

[USMCmech]

Like the guy above who isn't going to have any respect for his CHQ captain because he flew freight and his captain didn't. That's a pretty crappy attitude to have. There's more than one way to skin the "experience" cat.

I agree with you. Many pilots have different career goals, and urgency to meet those goals. To each his own. You have lost no respect in my eye by jumping right into an RJ at 500 hours.

Except for,

The guys who are affraid to fly 135 freight.

If you NEED two turbo fans, and a glass cockpit in order to feel safe up in the clouds, you need to seriously question if you are cut out for this line of work in any capacity.

When several CFIs told me that I was very brave for flying 135 freight, I seriously wonder about their abilities and confidence.

 

[Clocks]

When several CFIs told me that I was very brave for flying 135 freight, I seriously wonder about their abilities and confidence.

Well you do have the stereotype that an important skill in freight flying is one hand is holding the wing on and the other hand is duct taping the fuel leak.

 

[Blip16]

When several CFIs told me that I was very brave for flying 135 freight, I seriously wonder about their abilities and confidence.

i find it really scary when i try to teach instrument procedures in a 6 pack aircraft to people who have really only flown the glass. they don't even know what reverse sensing is

 

[Ian_J]

I hate to quote myself, but:

EDIT: The first person who is smaller and weaker than me who turns this into a regional v. freight bitchfest is getting an ass-whoopin'!

Seriously, I'm not afraid to run away from any of you. I'll do it. I'll run like a coward.

 

[killbilly]

Two bits from the student gallery...

I'd only distantly heard of "check haulers" before I came to JC but never made the connection that they were a stepping stone into an airline job.

When I first came to JC, I heard about Freight Dawgs and I was very pleasantly surprised. It seems to be the kind of flying which appeals to me (single pilot, night, no pax) at this point in my life.

I'd never have known about it without JC freight dawgs, y'know? And learning that I didn't HAVE to go into the airline world to have a real career in flying was a very, very pleasant surprise.

So, yeah, I think you should encourage it. It's obviously not for everyone, but I do think it would be for me.

 

[Trip7]

I'm kinda surprised that more guys don't consider going the freight route considering the student lonas most have after school. I mean you can get 40k plus a year in alot of these 135 outfits as compared to a lean 22k to start at a regional. Makes sense to get rid of the studfent lonas quick flying 135 before moving on to your next career step.

Just my 2 cents :rawk:

Many FOs at my company are easily passing 40k 2nd year and beyond...

 

[CFIscare]

For what's worth, I have always been an "airline" kind-of-guy who has recently open up to the freight world...

 

[wheelsup]

i always try to steer people away from regionals. the pay ibeing so lousy is the main reason i do it. its just a matter of time when the sjs guys can no longer get hired at joe schmoo regional with 300 hours. then everyone that looked down on 135 cargo will be begging for a job flying boxes. some people dont realize thats it's not up to them where they work, the economy says so. when i was coming up i always said i'd work anywhere, took the first instructor job i was offered, then with 1000 dual given, 1500 total and 1000 multi was honored to fly a chieftain, i was just happy to not be instructing anymore. today those numbers would make me eligable for a street captain at some regionals.

The thing is by the time you're at freight mins to make $40k/yr people these days are already neck-deep into the seniority list at their airlines, on second year pay.

I myself was hired at a regional with 2000 TT / 1500 dual, I considered freight but honestly just wanted to settle down. I was tired of working 22+ days a month "chasing the dream" from one CFI job to another. I realized that if I went freight I'd be living out of my car or in some really undesirable places for another couple years and didn't want to do that. I had also worked stocking groceries overnight a few times at my stock-boy job in high school and just couldn't deal with the overnight shifts.

I think a lot of people have "go to 121 regional" in their mind in high school though and never give freight a chance simply due to the misconceptions that go along with that type of flying.

 

[BillErvin]

If you NEED two turbo fans, and a glass cockpit in order to feel safe up in the clouds, you need to seriously question if you are cut out for this line of work in any capacity.

When several CFIs told me that I was very brave for flying 135 freight, I seriously wonder about their abilities and confidence.

I met a airline capt. a long while back who told me I was nuts to fly a single engine C172 across the Cascade range. I didn't have the heart to tell the guy I'd grown up flying a J-3 around those same mountains. From my perspective I'd stepped up to a much safer machine for flying in the mountains. Its all a matter of perspective, I grew up with Density altitude, wind currents, mountain waves, rotor clouds, etc so flying over a ridge was no big deal for me, but that guy thought I was a nutball. I'm not so cavalier about it now but I hope you see my point.

I don't know if having 500/50 prepares you to be a SJ FO. (I do doubt some of the radio skills I've heard though) Flying freight or doing the CFI thing for several years certainly would. But the fact is, they are getting hired.

Some want to fly the Shiny jet now! and some don't care. Oh well!! My uncle who taught me the to fly the J-3 retired out of the Air Farce flying the EC-121 (Thats the Constellation version of the AWACS for all you youngsters) he flew checks & freight for many years and taught flying until he lost his medical last year at age 76, never had the urge to fly for the airlines.

I just wonder how many will stay in the business when the going gets tough again.

 

[Ian_J]

I realized that if I went freight I'd be living out of my car or in some really undesirable places for another couple years and didn't want to do that...

...and never give freight a chance simply due to the misconceptions that go along with that type of flying.

I live in a very nice apartment in a beautiful Connecticut town.

And you certainly get more days off, but do you wanna compare Time Away From Base?

My point isn't to be confrontational at all - and in all honesty the night schedule can wear on you. But really, the job is pretty easy. I'm away from home only 40 hours a week. I don't work weekends. I DO work holidays though, but more seniority can get you out of them, but when I do work them, I get paid double.

There is a misconception about the lifestyle. Sure, people have lived in hangars, cars, FBOs, etc. But that was all by choice. You won't see me doing that - ever. I've lived in crappier conditions than most in my last job, and I'm not going back.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Two words. Generation-Y. As in, "Why do I have to wait until I have 1200 hours to get a job?"

This generation is so accustomed to getting what they want RIGHT NOW without putting any WORK into it, that it's not that they dont WANT to fly freight -- they're unwilling to work and put in the time to become qualified to do so.

So just like the Ipod they put on credit because they dont have two dimes to rub together, they jump at the first opportunity to go fly a big shiny jet regardless of whether they actually have the experience to be there.

-Former Freighter (C402 / Ramp 66 / Mid-90s)

 

[Ian_J]

Two words. Generation-Y. As in, "Why do I have to wait until I have 1200 hours to get a job?"

This generation is so accustomed to getting what they want RIGHT NOW without putting any WORK into it, that it's not that they dont WANT to fly freight -- they're unwilling to work and put in the time to become qualified to do so.

I don't know, man. The hiring people at the airlines are not telling people the current definition of "work" required for an airline job is to fly freight.

It's a difficult, if not impossible argument to make that "they're unwilling to work and put in the time to become qualified to do so." If employers would not hire anyone but 2000+ hour pilots, you'd bet your ass people would be more than willing to fly freight.

I'm betting you and I both know airline captains who never flew freight, and some who were hired low time, who are safe and competent aviators.

 

[Trip7]

Two words. Generation-Y. As in, "Why do I have to wait until I have 1200 hours to get a job?"

This generation is so accustomed to getting what they want RIGHT NOW without putting any WORK into it, that it's not that they dont WANT to fly freight -- they're unwilling to work and put in the time to become qualified to do so.

So just like the Ipod they put on credit because they dont have two dimes to rub together, they jump at the first opportunity to go fly a big shiny jet regardless of whether they actually have the experience to be there.

-Former Freighter (C402 / Ramp 66 / Mid-90s)

Generation Y baloney. Its called taking advantage of an opportunity. Just like you took advantage of going to USair with no TPIC. I could sit here berate you on how you didn't belong in a legacy cockpit with no 121 command experience. The treachery!

If I needed to fly freight to get to the airlines I would gladly do, but I didn't have to. All my friends that fly freight enjoy that job because that's type of flying appeals to them. Airline flying appeals to me, so with alittle over 500TT I was presented that opportunity and I jumped for it. Its ok, different strokes for different folks.

Withstanding the few konky folks who always mess up the statistics, pilots who flew freight and cfiied without a doubt bring the most to the 121 cockpit because of their experience. But IMO, its okay for a lower time pilot gain some of that experience in the right seat. Even with 50+ paying passengers in the back. Afterall, I gained the vast majority of my experience with a paying passenger directly to my left

 

[WalterSobchak]

I don't know, man. The hiring people at the airlines are not telling people the current definition of "work" required for an airline job is to fly freight.

It's a difficult, if not impossible argument to make that "they're unwilling to work and put in the time to become qualified to do so." If employers would not hire anyone but 2000+ hour pilots, you'd bet your ass people would be more than willing to fly freight.
Thats called september 12th 2001 if you have 1200 hours and aren't at a regional. I lived that story.:buck:

I'm betting you and I both know airline captains who never flew freight, and some who were hired low time, who are safe and competent aviators.
I have relatives that this is the case. It can be done just like anything when there is a willingness to do what it takes.

I liked 135, but couldn't do it for another 30 years.

 

[wheelsup]

And you certainly get more days off, but do you wanna compare Time Away From Base?

No because you'd be comparing apples to oranges. I could hold day trips and be home every night (sorry ) but I like spending 3-4 days away and don't like spending all that money on gas. If you were to go to a schedule that allows you to commute you'd be doing what, 8 on 6 off? That's no different than 4 on 3 off.

There is a misconception about the lifestyle. Sure, people have lived in hangars, cars, FBOs, etc. But that was all by choice. You won't see me doing that - ever. I've lived in crappier conditions than most in my last job, and I'm not going back.

Besides working at night Airnet definitely is a pretty good gig.

 

[WalterSobchak]

Generation Y baloney. Its called taking advantage of an opportunity. Just like you took advantage of going to USair with no TPIC. I could sit here berate you on how you didn't belong in a legacy cockpit with no 121 command experience. The treachery!

If I needed to fly freight to get to the airlines I would gladly do, but I didn't have to. All my friends that fly freight enjoy that job because that's type of flying appeals to them. Airline flying appeals to me, so with alittle over 500TT I was presented that opportunity and I jumped for it. Its ok, different strokes for different folks.

Withstanding the few konky folks who always mess up the statistics, pilots who flew freight and cfiied without a doubt bring the most to the 121 cockpit because of their experience. But IMO, its okay for a lower time pilot gain some of that experience in the right seat. Even with 50+ paying passengers in the back. Afterall, I gained the vast majority of my experience with a paying passenger directly to my left

I agree with you on all that. I used to have the 'every one needed to fly freight' mentality. Most of my FO's do a nice job. So what if they only have 600-1000 hours? They do every thing they are required to do and I don't feel like they are hurting anything. I can tell that a 600 hour pilot doesn't have the big picture down like a CA, but they dont need. As long as they do their job with a good attitude and a concern for safety I don't mind. Young new guys(and girls) are enhtusiastic to be here and that is a really nice to work with. I agree if you have enough time to get hired go and get hired. Not at the expense of other pilots i.e. gojet. If your goal is an airline and you can get hired why wait.

 

[Ian_J]

No because you'd be comparing apples to oranges. I could hold day trips and be home every night (sorry ) but I like spending 3-4 days away and don't like spending all that money on gas. If you were to go to a schedule that allows you to commute you'd be doing what, 8 on 6 off? That's no different than 4 on 3 off.

Yup, except during our 8 and 6, 2-3 days of the 8 on are probably not being worked, yet are being paid.

I've never held that schedule, but I imagine that could be a good thing if you are floating a good city, or it could be a very boring 2-3 days in your hotel.

If you did day trips would you still have a roughly 4 and 3 schedule?

 

[wheelsup]

No, day trip lines generally have more days off, 3 on 4 off for 17-18 days off total in the month is the norm. There aren't many of them, you'd need to be about top 25% but most people do trips anyway.

 

[OnTheFly7]

Hey Ian J,

I use to be one of those students that wanted to go the quick route, but recently changed my decision. I am going to become a CFI and then go through the "traditional" route of flying freight for a while to get some multi experience, build considerably good hours and then moving on maybe with the airlines. Can you help me out with some insights about becoming a freight pilot if I wanted to. I will be inexperienced and probably have really low amounts of time as ME goes. I think I know the difference between part 135 and 121 but if you can also re clarify that would be helpful as well.

Been away from the boards for a while and was checking in today and saw this thread and then Saber's avatar.

Have to over take the thread for a minute and give props. to Saber's Avatar!

As a former Huskie......................it's appreciated!

That is all, back to topic!

 

[minitour]

Yup, except during our 8 and 6, 2-3 days of the 8 on are probably not being worked, yet are being paid.

I've never held that schedule, but I imagine that could be a good thing if you are floating a good city, or it could be a very boring 2-3 days in your hotel.

Oh it's not quite as bad as it sounds.

I got off work 7:30 Friday morning and didn't go back until today (Monday) at 7am. Granted, I had an airline trip (two flights), a new hotel room and rental car in there, but I also got to see some local golf shops/courses. There's lots you could do.

I'm still unsure of how the whole pay thing works, so I won't comment on that. For now, I just look at the check and if it looks alright I say "okey dokey" and move on.
I've got to figure out a way to get my golf clubs to go with me from now on.:rawk:

Had it not been for the golf shops in close proximity............it would have been very dull. Beer can only offset so much dullness.

-mini