Is a tower-assigned heading a radar vector?

C150J

C150J

Well-Known Member
Hi guys!

As pilots, we do not know whether or not airports have Diverse Vector Areas. We know that, should an airport have a DVA, we can accept a turn at 400 feet above DER/200FPNM climb as long as it's a radar vector. When instructed by the tower to turn to a specific heading, does this guarantee terrain clearance? We are concerned, as some ODPs (which ATC vectors obviously supersede) are quite different from the vectors we've been given.


Thanks!
J.
 
Short answer, we do ensure terrain and obstruction clearance when vectoring.

It is considered a vector and it's covered under our procedures under 5-6-3. The vector must serve to maintain or increase your distance from an obstacle. Also, it addresses DVAs which I've never worked with.

5-6-3. VECTORS BELOW MINIMUM ALTITUDE

Except in en route automated environments in areas where more than 3 miles separation minima is required, you may vector a departing IFR aircraft, or one executing a missed approach, within 40 miles of
the antenna and before it reaches the minimum altitude for IFR operations if separation from prominent obstructions shown on the radar scope is applied in accordance with the following:​



a.
​
If the flight path is 3 miles or more from the obstruction and the aircraft is climbing to an altitude at least 1,000 feet above the obstruction, vector the aircraft to maintain at least 3 miles separation from the obstruction until the aircraft reports leaving an altitude above the obstruction. ​


b. If the flight path is less than 3 miles from the obstruction, and the craft is climbing to an altitude at least 1,000 feet above the obstruction, vector the aircraft to increase lateral separation from the obstruction until the 3 mile minimum is achieved or until the aircraft reports leaving an altitude above theobstruction.​



c. At those locations where diverse vector areas (DVA) have been established, terminal radar facilities may vector aircraft below the MVA/MIA within those areas and along those routes described in facility directives.​
 
Thanks FM!

Our one concern is that we have no way of knowing whether or not the tower has a scope to make such a determination. In ITH, for example, the tower does not have radar, yet tries to give us a 200-degree heading off the runway. The ODP prescribes waiting until a certain point to turn, yet we've been taught that vectors do take precedence. We simply don't know in those situations.
 
There are procedures in place for the situations you describe as well.

My tower has radar, so we are authorized to vector aircraft to a certain degree without coordination. Further vectoring of IFR aircraft can be accomplished with coordination with the departure controller.

In a tower without radar, you can still vector, but the vector used would come from somewhere else. It could be a standard climb-out vector that's defined in a Letter of Agreement with the radar facility that serves the tower. Additionally, in towers without radar, it's necessary to coordinate with Departure that the IFR aircraft is ready to depart. At that time, the departure controller may specify a heading to issue the aircraft.

An example would be departures from a towered satellite airport that we provide radar service for. By default, (through letter of agreement) their departures are assigned runway heading. Since they don't have permission to release IFR aircraft automatically, they call to obtain a release when the IFR departure is ready to go. When we approve the release, we can specify a heading other than what's prescribed in the Letter of Agreement if it's needed for traffic. The tower issues that heading, but it's not really their vector, it's the departure controller's.

In any case, care and thought has been exercised in issuing the vector to you. Vectors must comply with the regulations I posted above, and take into account terrain, obstructions, or traffic.

It's great that you've taken the initiative to critically think about those vectors though, the system works much more safely when we all understand each other's roles more completely.
 
When you say it's covered under your procedures 5-6-3. Is that text available online like the far/aim? Would you happen to have a link?

My next question is at some smaller class d airports I have gotten a clearance to turn right on course. However there is an obstacle departure procedure established with the runway. If a tower controller issues a clearance for takeoff followed by turn right on course does this fall under the same procedures as stated above?
 
Taking off from BAF once in IMC, the BDL tracon controller issued me a vector. As we turned to the heading, the controller says, "N123 low altitude alert, you are below the minimum vectoring altitude." :confused:

After the flight was over, I called the tracon and talked with the supervisor. After they checked the tapes, the bottom line was the controller on the radio was a trainee, and he had ensured we were clear of the terrain. The supervisor said the trainee should not have given the "low altitude" call to us.

Obviously in this situation it was not a tower-assigned vector, but I thought it might be interesting to relate the story.
 
matt152 said:
The supervisor said the trainee should not have given the "low altitude" call to us.
Click to expand...

ALL trainees have a rated controller plugged in with them and the rated controllers mic automatically disconnects the trainees mic when activated, which allows the rated controller to take charge of any situation if required. The trainer is responsible for all instructions issued by a trainee... It sounds like from your story, the trainer was distracted by either talking on the phone or with some one sitting at another scope... This incident should of never happened as you described...
 
mountainwaves said:
When you say it's covered under your procedures 5-6-3. Is that text available online like the far/aim? Would you happen to have a link?

My next question is at some smaller class d airports I have gotten a clearance to turn right on course. However there is an obstacle departure procedure established with the runway. If a tower controller issues a clearance for takeoff followed by turn right on course does this fall under the same procedures as stated above?
Click to expand...

It's from JO 7110.65T which is available in full on the faa.gov website. I think they have both PDF and HTML available. It's generally referred to as the 7110.65, 7110(though there are other publications beginning with 7110), or the "point sixty five."


mountainwaves said:
My next question is at some smaller class d airports I have gotten a clearance to turn right on course. However there is an obstacle departure procedure established with the runway. If a tower controller issues a clearance for takeoff followed by turn right on course does this fall under the same procedures as stated above?
Click to expand...

This too would take terrain/obstacle clearance into consideration. Unless you're VFR, then terrain and obstacle clearance is your responsibility. Though as a general rule, I don't bait pilots into flying into antennas even if VFR.


matt152 said:
Taking off from BAF once in IMC, the BDL tracon controller issued me a vector. As we turned to the heading, the controller says, "N123 low altitude alert, you are below the minimum vectoring altitude." :confused:

After the flight was over, I called the tracon and talked with the supervisor. After they checked the tapes, the bottom line was the controller on the radio was a trainee, and he had ensured we were clear of the terrain. The supervisor said the trainee should not have given the "low altitude" call to us.

Obviously in this situation it was not a tower-assigned vector, but I thought it might be interesting to relate the story.
Click to expand...

And this sort of ties back to my initial reply about our procedures regarding Vectors Below Minimum Altitude, that maybe the trainee wasn't fully comfortable with. It's very likely that initial vectors to a departing aircraft are going to happen while still below the Minimum Vectoring Altitude. But as the section I pasted above states, that's ok. As long as the vector serves to maintain 3 miles from the obstruction, or, of already within 3 miles, the vector increases the distance to 3 miles while the aircraft is climbing to an altitude above the MVA. I could understand how the Low Altitude Alarm could go off in these situations, but we should know it's not a valid alert :)
 
FWIW :clap: - Additionally, tower radars have specifically designated uses.

FAA Order 7110.65, Section 3-1-9
b. Local controllers may use certified tower radar
displays for the following purposes:

1. To determine an aircraft's identification,
exact location, or spatial relationship to other aircraft.
2. To provide aircraft with radar traffic
advisories.
3. To provide a direction or suggested headings
to VFR aircraft as a method for radar identification or
as an advisory aid to navigation.

PHRASEOLOGY-
(identification), SUGGESTED HEADING (degrees),
(other instructions as necessary).

NOTE: It is important that the pilot be aware of the fact that the
directions or headings being provided are suggestions or
are advisory in nature. This is to keep the pilot from being
inadvertently misled into assuming that radar vectors (and
other associated radar services) are being provided when,
in fact, they are not.
 
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