iPads in the cockpit

[PositionAndHold]

You're simply not thinking creatively. Source modification is the corporate wet dream, it would allow them to completely customize the unit to their needs. They could hardwire the unit into the vehicle's power and have system services turn on and off based on power situations or nav status. They could disallow any other apps, remove the browser or email programs. Push system updates from the mothership. There are many things that could be done that can't be done with an app even on Android.

Number of apps is irrelevant, and it's just as easy to develop for Android (and cheaper too). The people who have become millionaires are the minority, most developers make little money on their apps and only do it because they like it. Nothing wrong with that by the way. I used to sell an app, and made a bit of money, but currently my only active app is free and no ads, because I like it that way.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus that ate your iPhone.

Yeah, I wasn't thinking quite that far. It is kind of funny to think we're are talking about phones and tablets that were basically meant for web browsing and media consumption, oh and phone calls.

The things you listed five years ago would almost require a company to design the hardware side as well. (think the UPS package scanner and sign for thing the drivers carry) It goes to show we live in revolutionary times when we want to replace every thing with a phone and tablet. These devices, android and Apple are truly powerful machines. I think even apple was surprised by the level of adoption in the enterprise arena. A space, in the past has been driven by IT and not the employee bringing a device in and saying "make it work".

Edit to add: I was thinking, about the vehicle power scenario you posted above. It seems now it's a two part system, where you'll have a piece of hardware that does what you need it to, then interfaces with an app on the device. This way you're not dedicating the whole device to that one task. You take it with when you leave the van, run a separate app you need for mobility, get back in the van, dock it and run a separate app for the dock. I think we'll see more and more of this type of use.

 

[motoboy]

I've been using the ipad for 2 years with flying as the sole purpose. I'm debating on getting rid of my ipad for an android setup. The Google Nexus 7 is half the size, 8 x 5 inches, and it seems like it would be perfect. Naviator or Avilution would be the software. $200 for the Nexus, $50 for Naviator - $25 that comes free for the app store. I just need to play around with one.

I just got my Nexus a few weeks ago, and love it. I've downloaded Garmin Pilot and Naviator, haven't had the chance to take it flying yet unfortunately. In my opinion, the size is ideal for the cockpit. The Jelly Bean Android is quite a bit better than previous versions, "Project Butter" took out most of the old glitches and made it extremely smooth.

 

[🦈💜]

Your whole argument is invalid simply because you haven't and will never see the iOS source code. You don't have any idea how it's built under the hood and Apple is the undisputed king of putting a shiny face on a mediocre system.

In what way is "Apple the undisputed king of putting a shiny face on a mediocre system"?

That's another "This is fact because I said it" statement.

Let's tackle your main point, though. First, to preface this, I've been using Linux since kernel 0.99, and my primary career is a systems administrator and infrastructure architect, currently working for HP. That doesn't give me any authority whatsoever, mind you, and I don't intend to imply that it does -- but I want to make the case that Linux/free software is and has been my livelihood, and made me a lot of money. (What I've done with it ... that's a different story!)

I like Linux. I'm a huge proponent of open source. Yet you sometimes need a "benevolent dictatorship" to actually get things done coherently. I'm not going to say that's an absolute fact, but I certainly will stand behind it -- If you put all the smartest minds in their respective fields together and tell them to collectively design something ... well, we have lots of examples of that in the industry, and I think they need little introduction.
I don't feel, based on my experience, that OSX is a mediocre system--and iOS is basically OSX. In some ways you can judge the strength of an operating system by the robustness and stability of its APIs, and from a developer point of view both iOS and OSX are very robust, stable and clean... cocoa touch is wonderful to develop for. I didn't like Objective C when I started (My previous experience is with Ada/C/C++/sh/Ruby/Java/etc/etc), but when I began to see the strength of the object model I must admit I fell in love a little. It's a joy to write for.

That aside, I'm not trying to comparatively analyze the technical merits of each, or highlight iOS's features -- mostly I just want to add counterpoint to your rabidly anti-apple post. I don't think it's realistic to stand so far to one side of the issue or the other -- they're both demonstrably successful mobile operating systems. One uses a semi-open model, the other uses a semi-closed model. The semi-open model carries a set of advantages and disadvantages, as does the semi-closed model. As an architect, I like systems that are well-founded, that have been designed rather than slapped together. I like a strong consistency of interface, because it leads to simplification of advanced concepts. I like one point of control for the foundations of a system, as different people with different ideas tend to compromise (willingly or unwillingly) and, like fifteen cooks in a kitchen, everything comes out tasting about the same.

I love Sun, and I love Linux. I like iOS, and I wanted to love android, but I simply couldn't.

Whatever, both systems are fine for most things. My point was that with Android, an airline, or anyone else, can modify the source code of the OS itself to accomplish things that you could simply never do with iOS no matter how many things you side load onto it.

But that's not necessarily a good thing, from a usability perspective.

I was going to go into a lot more detail here, but ... as stupid as it sounds, I got kinda tired and a little bored. ~.^ I've said enough, anyway!

~Fox

 

[killbilly]

I love discussions with developers. I work primarily as a Sales Engineer (lately more sales than engineering, sadly) and I have to interface with users and developers on a regular basis.

My company produces a mobility application that runs in both iOS and Android environments, and we're constantly evolving the product on both platforms with varying levels of performance.

The Android product, overall, performs "better" in the sense that the most unique feature of our product really shines on Android. People seem to like it. However, the iOS version is considerably more stable, integrates better with the rest of our stuff, and is far easier to use. We get hamstrung in certain places because Apple won't let us go as deep into the system as we were able to go with Android. (Our really killer version is actually on Symbian, but hardly anyone uses that anymore.) So because of those restrictions, there are a couple of little quirks with the software which are entirely easy to live with, but do require some calling out to users as part of training.

My customers are split down the line 50-50 - almost exactly - regarding the platform they like. I'm in the camp that prefers stability and ease of use over customization. I don't think that's "wrong" of me, but I do think it reflects the more desired UI experience in the market.

 

[woodreau]

So, with the iPad3 or later, you don't need to buy the GPS that plugs into it to get Nexrad? That would be nice to not have to attach anything.
How do the charts and maps work while you are flying?... Will it show you your position on an approach plate?

Thanks all for the replies.

I believe if you get the stratus unit for NEXRAD, it also functions as an external gps. So basically two for 1. It interfaces wirelessly to your iPad so there's nothing to physically connect to your iPad.

Even though the iPad you use may have an internal gps, you'll have to do your own evaluation in your cockpit to see if it works inflight. The internal gps of the ipad doesn't work consistently in flight in the airplane I fly, but once paired with an external gps it's solid. Point being, you'll have to do your own testing.

 

[Ralgha]

My rabid anti-Apple sentiment actually has nothing to do with iStuff itself, but the company that is Apple. They are not a benevolent dictatorship, they are a draconian dictatorship. Just look at their frivolous lawsuits, granted Samsung has responded with a few stupid ones too, but they're simply stooping to Apple's level.

The past two iPhone releases have been very minor updates both in software and hardware, catching up to the competition in neither area, simply hanging on in the rear. Apple stopped innovating around the iPad or iPhone 4, I forget which was first, and has switched to patent troll mode instead to try to slow the competition instead of trying to beat them with products.

Apple's apparent goal is to control what, where, and how the world consumes media. You'll do it their way and like it, or you won't do it at all.

That is why I don't like Apple.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus that ate your iPhone.

 

[rframe]

Still loving my Android Galaxy Tab 10", it downloaded ICS last night. Still totally digging Avilution's AviationMaps, really intuitive application with a great workflow and a very responsive developer. The only problem I've had is the internal GPS on the Tab doesn't report altitude correctly, however I'm about to switch to a $50 external bluetooth GPS receiver anyway as the internal GPS is the main battery sucker.

 

[ozziecat35]

I'm strongly considering Foreflight right now. $75 a year for everything it does seems like a bargain, and I already have an iPad3/4G (for work) so I don't need an external GPS.

Are there any competing products worth looking at? Or complementary products? Foreflight seems most popular, but there has to be others.

I just did a solid 4 day weekend of IFR flying in the Seminole with my iPad & Foreflight...It was fan fricking-tastic. I think next to the twin 430 stack the Seminole has, iPad w/ foreflight is a huge addition to SA. Just remember to download plates for the state you're flying to, or possibly diverting to.

I just left it in a neoprene non-slip soft case on my other leg next to the kneeboard, worked fine. I think it would be annoying to have it mounted.

 

[killbilly]

I just did a solid 4 day weekend of IFR flying in the Seminole with my iPad & Foreflight...It was fan fricking-tastic. I think next to the twin 430 stack the Seminole has, iPad w/ foreflight is a huge addition to SA. Just remember to download plates for the state you're flying to, or possibly diverting to.

I just left it in a neoprene non-slip soft case on my other leg next to the kneeboard, worked fine. I think it would be annoying to have it mounted.

Any issues with glare?

 

[ozziecat35]

Any issues with glare?

Not really, I guess I could see where it "may" be an issue...but it would be few and far between.

I should add that this was my first real set of flying truly using everything the combo can do, so I'm still on that "this is frickin awesome" high...I haven't found too many annoyances with it yet. I have the 3G version, so I just use the built in GPS, the groundspeed & altitude matched the 430's and the transponders pressure alt. readout almost exactly every time.

I do not have the pro version which gives you geo-reference location on the plates or taxi diagrams, but honestly, I'm not sure if the extra $ is worth it...YMMV.

 

[🦈💜]

My rabid anti-Apple sentiment actually has nothing to do with iStuff itself, but the company that is Apple. They are not a benevolent dictatorship, they are a draconian dictatorship. Just look at their frivolous lawsuits, granted Samsung has responded with a few stupid ones too, but they're simply stooping to Apple's level.

About the lawsuits, I agree wholeheartedly. Unfortunately, the entire stupid industry is trending that direction -- Don't get me started on the patent system in this country. Anyway, I don't have to like Apple's behavior to think that their product is good... and that's what we're talking about here, right?
As far as benevolence versus malevolence, a dictatorship is measured in that regard by its actions toward its people rather than its actions toward the world... so keep that in mind.

The past two iPhone releases have been very minor updates both in software and hardware, catching up to the competition in neither area, simply hanging on in the rear.

While I feel that neither the iPhone 4S or 5 breaks new ground, that doesn't mean that Apple is simply 'hanging on'. Again, I'll just point back to my previous analogy. Sometimes small moves are big improvements... strategic gains. Pawn moves. I don't necessarily see many of the "advancements" in the field to be necessarily positive, and Apple may not either.

Apple stopped innovating around the iPad or iPhone 4, I forget which was first, and has switched to patent troll mode instead to try to slow the competition instead of trying to beat them with products.

That's a stretch. Apple has been putting a great deal of time and effort into infrastructure components, like iCloud and core OS features. It doesn't show much progress now (And I wouldn't necessarily call it "innovative"), but it positions them to make rapid gains ... as I alluded to earlier. What their long-term roadmap holds, I do not know ... but I, for one, give them the benefit of the doubt here.

Apple's apparent goal is to control what, where, and how the world consumes media. You'll do it their way and like it, or you won't do it at all.

As I recall, most of this "control" was forced on them by carriers, labels, and other entities that they had to deal with. They wanted to have a far less restrictive policy when they launched the original iPhone, but the carriers went nuts over "uncontrolled" apps on their network, and forced them to make many changes to reduce the amount of influence the applications could have. As someone who's worked in that space, I can say that carrier contracts can be pretty ugly.

Deals with the recording lawy^H^H^H^Hindustry can be just as bad.

Now, that said, I don't support everything Apple does and everything they are. They have certainly taken steps to attempt to gain lock-in and market dominance, and they're very well aware of a demographic they can target that will buy anything they create as a status symbol. I don't necessarily hold that against them, and won't until they start making design compromises to appeal to that group, which I haven't seen yet.

Anyway, I think that's quite enough from me on the subject. ^.^

~Fox

 

[Ralgha]

That's a stretch. Apple has been putting a great deal of time and effort into infrastructure components, like iCloud and core OS features. It doesn't show much progress now (And I wouldn't necessarily call it "innovative"), but it positions them to make rapid gains ... as I alluded to earlier. What their long-term roadmap holds, I do not know ... but I, for one, give them the benefit of the doubt here.

Cloud and the other core features have been part of the competition for a year or more. That's why I say they're "holding on" and not innovating.

As I recall, most of this "control" was forced on them by carriers, labels, and other entities that they had to deal with. They wanted to have a far less restrictive policy when they launched the original iPhone, but the carriers went nuts over "uncontrolled" apps on their network, and forced them to make many changes to reduce the amount of influence the applications could have. As someone who's worked in that space, I can say that carrier contracts can be pretty ugly.

They actually forced the carriers to relax their control. Their exclusivity contract with AT&T earned them a boatload of cash, and drew subscribers to AT&T, mutual benefit (some would say it hurt AT&T though by crushing their data network). This indirectly forced Verizon (historically the most draconian wireless carrier with respect to phone control) to relax their control when the original Droid came out. Apple chooses to control what apps are allowed on their app store, not the carriers. Apple chooses to not allow you to side load apps (without jailbreaking), not the carriers. Apple chooses to go with proprietary connectors instead of the ubiquitous micro USB, not the carriers. Apple chooses to not let you replace the battery, not the carriers. Etc, etc, etc.

Now, that said, I don't support everything Apple does and everything they are. They have certainly taken steps to attempt to gain lock-in and market dominance, and they're very well aware of a demographic they can target that will buy anything they create as a status symbol. I don't necessarily hold that against them, and won't until they start making design compromises to appeal to that group, which I haven't seen yet.

They won't make design compromises to appeal to any demographic except themselves. They don't design devices for consumers, they design them for themselves (Jobs actually) and then convince consumers that it's what they want. Now that Steve Jobs is gone that may change, since it was all his party.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

IMO the Android/iOS battle is just a reprise of the old Apple/IBM-DOS one from the80's. Closed, controlled system vs. open, less controlled one. All the old arguments on both sides apply. The results may turn out different since both times and the market have changed. But it's really the same old story.

 

[SOUTH COAST AERONAUTICS]

I've been debating on getting an iPad to use flying single-pilot IFR and just to have an extra back-up with me for the "just in case" scenario. I know some pilots who really like them a lot and I know others who don't particularly care for them. So...

I have been wondering a couple of things...

*Does the size of the current iPads make them a pain to use in the cockpit? I have been thinking of waiting to see if Apple releases the rumored iPad Mini this year.

*Have any of you tried them as a "digital kneeboard" with a leg strap?

*Have you had any problems with them not working or failing at bad times?

*Would you recommend a protective case for use in the cockpit?

*Are they useful for local flights (I do photographer runs and the occasional 91 lunch meeting... usually anywhere from .5 to 1.0... I also fly Traffic Watch and dodging thunderstorms in the afternoons can be a pain sometimes. The Nexrad might be nice for that.) or are they better suited for flying cross-country?

*Can anyone recommend any useful apps for pilots other than Foreflight? I tried the 3 month trial of that on my iPhone about a year back and loved it, but the iPhone just isn't practical for use in the cockpit for obvious reasons.

Smaller? No way.

 

[scooter2525]

As much as I like having an iPad in the cockpit, I would very much enjoy flying a plane with no electronics. Ditch the pad, gps and any other "unnecessarys" and go FLY!

 

[scooter2525]

As much as I like having an iPad in the cockpit, I would very much enjoy flying a plane with no electronics. Ditch the pad, gps and any other "unnecessarys" and go FLY!

 

[SixAlpha]

It's really too bad the airlines have been blinded by Crapple marketing and gone with iPads. The open nature of Android would allow them to do some truly amazing things that would never be possible on Apple products.

Except for the fact that the airlines don't want a tablet that does amazing things. They want something that is stable and does what it's supposed to. I wish I had the link for it handy, but if you take a look at the report from the IT folks at American Airlines after their iPad testing, it's pretty interesting, American did take a look at the Android devices, but specifically didn't care for the open nature of them and preferred the stability of the Apple products. Evidently, the FAA has also indicated they were unlikely to certify an Android device because of the security and stability concerns. I seem to recall that Quantas came to similar conclusions when they went Apple.

 

[fholbert]

Any issues with glare?

No.

The problem I have is at night it's too bright and yes I had the brightness turned all the way down.

 

[killbilly]

No.

The problem I have is at night it's too bright and yes I had the brightness turned all the way down.

Did you try inverting the screen, too? I'm told that helps.

 

[scooter2525]

No.

The problem I have is at night it's too bright and yes I had the brightness turned all the way down.

have you tried night mode?