Interview suit?

Boyington said:
I look at it in the "professionalism" aspect than the conformity, but I do understand that point of view. I think it has to do with ability to follow rules/SOPs. If you can't even conform to basic social protocols, how can you be trusted to follow SOPs. If you don't take your first meeting with the airline seriously, how can you be expected to take their rules seriously when you are in the airplane with your hands on the controls?
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I can understand the professionalism aspect. I cannot accept the conformity aspect. The ability to follow rules/SOPs has nothing whatsoever to do with the desire to challenge outdated social norms.

Here's an example—People who ride with me in a car are often amazed that I completely and meticulously obey all traffic laws. I've always been excruciatingly honest and meticulous in documenting all of my hours, following all regulations*, and so on.

Here's why: The rules / SOPs define a system, and however imperfect, a system works best when everyone is playing by the same rules. That's conformance, not conformity, if you take my meaning.

I also have no problem being as sharp as possible in my uniform when I'm jumpseating, and if I was flying in a job that required it I would have no problem being sharp in my uniform at all times. Likewise, if I were in the military. I actually have a bit of a hard-on for military structure.

If that seems hard to reconcile, I understand, but the difference isn't subtle from my point of view. Rules are different than 'norms'. Bad rules should be challenged, yes, but obeyed. Norms, on the other hand, are often vestiges of systems of order and discrimination which, in my view, can and should be challenged.

-Fox
 
Acrofox said:
Is conformity really the chief attribute of a pilot?
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Yes.

If you're unwilling to fly standard even if you think the procedures are silly, then I want you nowhere near my cockpit.

It's not personal, it's just business: I don't have the time or the patience to play guessing games about how you're going to fly the aircraft, or if you'll go around if one of us calls for a go around, or any number of other issues. This is a profession, not a hobby.
 
Acrofox said:
I can understand the professionalism aspect. I cannot accept the conformity aspect. The ability to follow rules/SOPs has nothing whatsoever to do with the desire to challenge outdated social norms.

Here's an example—People who ride with me in a car are often amazed that I completely and meticulously obey all traffic laws. I've always been excruciatingly honest and meticulous in documenting all of my hours, following all regulations*, and so on.

Here's why: The rules / SOPs define a system, and however imperfect, a system works best when everyone is playing by the same rules. That's conformance, not conformity, if you take my meaning.

I also have no problem being as sharp as possible in my uniform when I'm jumpseating, and if I was flying in a job that required it I would have no problem being sharp in my uniform at all times. Likewise, if I were in the military. I actually have a bit of a hard-on for military structure.

If that seems hard to reconcile, I understand, but the difference isn't subtle from my point of view. Rules are different than 'norms'. Bad rules should be challenged, yes, but obeyed. Norms, on the other hand, are often vestiges of systems of order and discrimination which, in my view, can and should be challenged.

-Fox
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None of that matters, because it all requires me to get to know you in order to know any of it. When hiring, I have to be able to make a snap judgment based on a resume, cover letter, and half hour interview. That's the information available to make the decision. So if you show up not wearing the standard "interview uniform," then I have to use that information to make a decision about what it means about you. And more often than not, it doesn't mean something good. So you get tossed out and the job goes to someone who will conform.

Job seeking is a competitive environment. The other people sitting in the lobby with you are fighting against you for that position. Don't give them an advantage.
 
amorris311 said:
50lbs loss is quite a feat for some of the best tailors. You need to find someone that will not only reduce the size but also keep the structural integrity of the suit. If had that great of a loss I would get a new suit.
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Good point. I was thinking merely in terms of cost savings.
 
To the topic at hand - @ATN_Pilot is right about one thing - go with the suit which fits the best, followed by color. If you have two which fit equally well, I would then pick the QUALITY suit, over the color. In fact, once you get hired, get your uniforms tailored as well. If you're skinny, have your pilot shirts re-cut to fit. I cannot tell you how awful an ill-fitting uniform looks to us passengers.

Not that you care what we think. :)

Really good suits are investments, honestly - which is part of the reason a good, conservative cut is more desirable because it will be fashionable for decades - it will likely outlast your waistline.

'Tis a strange thing though...

I have had to purchase 3 suits in the last year, and I have ONLY worn them to social functions which require them - this strikes me as totally ass-backward, but it's what I had to do.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
None of that matters, because it all requires me to get to know you in order to know any of it. When hiring, I have to be able to make a snap judgment based on a resume, cover letter, and half hour interview. That's the information available to make the decision. So if you show up not wearing the standard "interview uniform," then I have to use that information to make a decision about what it means about you. And more often than not, it doesn't mean something good. So you get tossed out and the job goes to someone who will conform.
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I don't know how many people you've interviewed or hired, but I've done a helluva lot of interviewing and I've never had to judge someone based on their clothing choices. I'll grant you that aviation is a different industry and far less "creative" than the business of large-scale computing, but even still it doesn't sound like a very useful interview process if you can't get a feel for the candidate in the process and need to make a "snap decision" based on how they're dressed.

That said, I'm certainly not saying that you're wrong in asserting that that's how it's done. I was hired at my current flying job with a conversation and a handshake, but I have no experience at the 'real' airlines. I find it surprising how commoditized the profession is, though, and it makes me suspect that it's in its death throes. My interviews are creative and adapted to the candidate, their background and experience, and their interests. I've never asked an "interview question", and I can't imagine what I'd gain from a "TMAAT" question out of a book. When the measure of a candidate is how uniform and unexceptional they are, it tells me that the distinction between one pilot and the next is effectively nil, and that their skills and abilities are, as you put it in another thread, those of a trained monkey. The decline in the value of intelligence as seen in this business and others that used to seek creativity, passion and interest is an unfortunate sign of the times.

Job seeking is a competitive environment. The other people sitting in the lobby with you are fighting against you for that position. Don't give them an advantage.
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I think that's probably the difference, and that's something I'm personally going to have trouble adapting to—In tech, the candidate is in the position of power. In aviation, it seems as though the airline has the candidate by the balls, even when hiring picks up.

I'm not trolling here, by the way—as I said initially, this whole subject has given me something to think back on for the times when I consider a "career" in the airlines. I'm not a compulsory non-conformist—I'll happily 'conform' if I see the point—but I'd rather be valued for my attributes that stand out than for my ability to be an automaton.

Aviation is absolutely the industry for me, but perhaps, as I always expected, the airlines aren't the business.

I just need to remind myself of that more often.

-Fox
 
Perhaps corporate aviation would be more to your taste. I've never been in that part of the industry, so I don't know, but maybe they view things differently. @SteveC or someone else might be able to answer that. But in the airline industry, conformity is expected at your interview. Hell, aside from a colorful tie, even SWA looks for you to stick to the traditional "interview uniform."
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Perhaps corporate aviation would be more to your taste. I've never been in that part of the industry, so I don't know, but maybe they view things differently. @SteveC or someone else might be able to answer that. But in the airline industry, conformity is expected at your interview. Hell, aside from a colorful tie, even SWA looks for you to stick to the traditional "interview uniform."
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As should be expected in the airlines. Conformity is practically a focus item.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Fit is always more important than color. A suit in a great color that fits poorly will never look as well as a suit of a slightly less desirable color but that fits perfectly.

In this case, for a regional interview, go with the suit that fits better. If it was a Delta interview, I'd tell you to bite the bullet and go buy a Brooks Brothers navy blue suit. No need for a regional interview, though.
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If it's a Delta interview, you should be getting at least a made to measure, if not full bespoke suit. Off the rack suits can fit well, but if you don't fit into the averages, then off the rack wont work or can look forced, especially if you are after a more European look. If your drop is over 8, 6 really, it's either separates or mtm.
 
Ha ha, fine, but MTM should be doable! Unless you happen to fit into the mold off the rack suits come in, something will look off. If you buy a 40R jacket, and are not a 34 waist, then the pant legs will look a bit too baggy for a tailored jacket. Maybe it's just me, but I get annoyed when I put on a nice fitting jacket and the pants don't fit as well as they should.
 
My last interview suit (off the rack), cost $1100. Now I get to wear it for fun!

Is the interview suit truly the man's version of a bridal dress? I don't think I could interview in the same suit twice... It wouldn't have the just off the showroom floor feel anymore.
 
Matt13C said:
Ha ha, fine, but MTM should be doable! Unless you happen to fit into the mold off the rack suits come in, something will look off. If you buy a 40R jacket, and are not a 34 waist, then the pant legs will look a bit too baggy for a tailored jacket. Maybe it's just me, but I get annoyed when I put on a nice fitting jacket and the pants don't fit as well as they should.
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While I agree with the idea that if a suit isn't bespoken or made to measure there is bound to be something that looks a bit off.

Where we part ways, though, is thinking that the person doing an interview at an airline is even remotely qualified to be able to recognize the fact your suit doesn't fit perfectly.

Who is typically doing interviews? Line pilots and HR shills. Neither of which, on average I would expect to have a fine eye for fashion and men's clothing. There are a ton of nuances in fine men's dress that most people don't even come close to picking up on.

Now, I'm not saying go interview at Delta with a clearance suit from Foley's, but you also don't need to drop a months worth of wages on your attire either.
 
There is nothing wrong with a good looking suit that fits well, it will make you feel pretty... and that will only help your confidence during the interview.

:)
 
Matt13C said:
you should be getting at least a made to measure, if not full bespoke suit...... If your drop is over 8, 6 really, it's either separates or mtm.
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I have no clue what those terms even mean. I think its totally absurd how much time and money people spend on fashion, particularly when a pilot will be wearing a uniform that is determined by the company.

I do think that having a applicant wear the uniform that he is currently using at least is relevant.


OTOH, while I don't care one bit how much money you spent on your suit, I do care that it is clean and worn properly.
 
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