Interesting day at glider airport.

tlewis95 said:
In the Pawnee??? It is scary how easily that can happen in the Pawnee with its wonderfully accurate fuel gauge that can show a half tank on the ground, but somehow end up at an eighth tank as you are climbing out.
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I don't trust the fuel gauges in the Pawnee either, I go strictly by engine tach time. And I was .2 tach hours under what should have left me with a 45 minute reserve. (So, still technically legal VFR reserves when I got to the pumps, but still. Closer than I like it to get.)
 
My glider club is based at 67D. Its a privately owned grass airport. We have two runways.

I don't trust the fuel gauges in the Pawnee either, I go strictly by engine tach time. And I was .2 tach hours under what should have left me with a 45 minute reserve. (So, still technically legal VFR reserves when I got to the pumps, but still. Closer than I like it to get.)
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Yea the fuel gauge sucks on it. Club rules are refill when it shows 10 gallons left on it but I wouldnt go just by fuel gauge. Tach time works well. I tend to be conserative with it and fuel up maybe a tow or two before it really needs it. Rather be safe then sorry though and have two gliders land on both runways leaving me having to circle and have no fuel left to do so.
 
I generally decide when to fuel up based on the number of tows.

I figure that I can do 7-8 3000' tows and still have about 45 minutes left on average. I adjust that number based on how high the tows have been going, how long they are taking, and how much idle time I have on the runway.

It usually leaves me with about 10 gallons left when I go to the pumps.
 
Inverted25 said:
My glider club is based at 67D. Its a privately owned grass airport. We have two runways.



Yea the fuel gauge sucks on it. Club rules are refill when it shows 10 gallons left on it but I wouldnt go just by fuel gauge. Tach time works well. I tend to be conserative with it and fuel up maybe a tow or two before it really needs it. Rather be safe then sorry though and have two gliders land on both runways leaving me having to circle and have no fuel left to do so.
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I'm guessing the guys story was a stretch. He probably just forgot to fuel up, or thought he could stretch it to get cheap gas at home. I remember one person that didn't want to fuel up coming out of the Bahamas and put it in the water 5 miles short of Fort Pierce. Then when I was flying out of Bowling Green (OH) in college a dude ran out of gas and landed in a corn field about 10 miles short of the airport. I landed with less than probably 20mins in the tanks once early in my training. I was going off of the POH numbers, and needless to say a 30 year old duchess burns significantly more than the books says it will. I never made that mistake again. Fuel is the easiest thing to control yet it's been the primary factor in nearly every accident or incident I've witnessed personally.

Side question for you glider guys. How does it work for the tow pilot? Do they get paid, free glider time? I have an ATP CFII MEI and about 3000 hours and I want to learn how to fly gliders, but I don't really have the funds for it right now.
 
greaper007 said:
Side question for you glider guys. How does it work for the tow pilot? Do they get paid, free glider time? I have an ATP CFII MEI and about 3000 hours and I want to learn how to fly gliders, but I don't really have the funds for it right now.
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The depends on the type of operation that you are flying at. Most glider operations are clubs where tow pilots are volunteers. Some clubs will give a reduced rate on tows for tow pilots, or some other little compensation.

There are a handful of commercial glider operations in the US now. I tow/give rides/work line for one of these and get paid per tow/flight as well as get free tows, rental, food, glider storage, checkrides, etc. It is a pretty sweet part-time/weekend gig. I make a few bucks towing one day, and get to take my dad's glider out for a few hours the next basically.
 
Yea unlike tlewis I fly at a club. We dont pay the tow pilot. Tow pilots do get certain perks like free tows after so many tows given etc but you wont make any money doing it and you wont get enough free tows to finish even a add on rating even if you towed everyday. I do it simply because I enjoy the tailwheel flying. But if you get your commercial and cfi-g there is money to be made. We have ALOT of students at my club. Partially because we offer 30 day temp memberships that have to fly with a cfi when they fly. And we get on average about 50-70 temp members a year. Plus there is a handful of full members that still need instruction. We also give rides at our club. CFI-G at least in this area are hard to come by. So if you get your CFI-G you stay busy. The guy at our glider airport never gets out the training glider. He gets in about 9am and gets out to go home about 5pm.

But even if your not going to get your cfi-g there is soo much that you can do flying gliders. I am big into competition flying and trying to break records. To become a good soaring pilot takes skill. And once you get good at it theres nothing better then going up on a day where lift is hard to find, and staying up all day while everyone else is going right back down. Makes you feel good when you land and everyone is asking you where did you find the lift no one else could stay up.
 
Inverted25 said:
Yea unlike tlewis I fly at a club. We dont pay the tow pilot. Tow pilots do get certain perks like free tows after so many tows given etc but you wont make any money doing it and you wont get enough free tows to finish even a add on rating even if you towed everyday. I do it simply because I enjoy the tailwheel flying. But if you get your commercial and cfi-g there is money to be made.
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Same here, though our tow pilots don't get free tows (we used to, kind of lame). Our tows are pretty cheap though, and the club gliders are free for club members.

I do it for the same reason - I like flying. You will get very good at tailwheel landings - all you do is takeoff and land, about 5 flights an hour. You will also know who the good pilots are behind you, because you can sense everything they do wrong ;)

We don't have any tow pilots that aren't also CFI-G's or at least commercial glider, and realistically, you probably shouldn't be towing without a glider rating anyway. To be honest, I can't see any commercial glider operation needing a tow pilot that isn't already a decent glider pilot.

Free tows or not, they only really matter when you are working on a glider rating. After that, the tow is pretty cheap, I routinely stay up for at least 2 hours in weak lift now, which ain't bad in club ships for a $20 tow. And doing intro rides alone is enough for you to stay current.

With the Blanik L-13s down, there is not any instruction going on these days. Which is a shame, they are great trainers.

And a last-minute plug, anyone going to NJC up for some glider flying on Tuesday in Vegas???
 
Yea we are lucky to have a grob 103 so we are still getting training done. But with so many students the grob 103 is backed up all day now with people waiting to fly. Our tow rates are fairly cheap as well. 12.50 for 1500, 20 for 2000, 25 for 3000, 31 for 4000. Club gliders are free to use you just pay tow fee. Yearly dues are 500 split up quarterly. But like drunkenbeagle said once you become proficient staying up 2-3 hours even in weak lift isnt to hard. The problem we have is that there is a one hour limit on club gliders if someone else is waiting to use it. But there is a fair number of private glider owners on the field that if you make friends with them will let you fly their ship as long as you carry non owned insurance. We have a guy now who is working on getting into competition and he stays up at least 3 hours everytime he goes up and stayed up over 5 hours the last time I saw him there.
 
So ballpark, how much does a commercial add-on run? I haven't flown in a year now, mostly because it's too expensive and there's such a glut of instructors. It seems like gliding is a cheaper option though. Does anyone on here fly out of Boulder? I was at my sister's soccer game last week in Boulder and I saw a ton of gliders.
 
Cant help you on the cost estimate, probably around 3000 if I had to guess. Gliding is cheap when you become good enough to stay up for a long time, but when you are starting out it can be expensive. If you cant stay up for a long time, the cost of the tows can become quite the expense.
 
Ill break it down how much a commerciall add on would be at my club.

One time membership buy in $600.00
SSA membership $64.00
Fixed Costs:..........................$664.00


Ok flying costs now. To do a commercial add on with no previous glider experience you will need 3 hours of dual or 10 dual flights. And 20 solo glider flights as PIC.

So at FAA mins it would be

10 dual flights to 3000............(25x10)= $250.00
10 solo flights to 1500......(12.50 x10) = $125.00
10 solo flights to 3000...........(25x10) = $250.00
10 flight dual instruction fee...(10x10) = $100.00
Checkride Fee.................................= $450.00
Total Flying Costs............................= $1175.00

Fixed Costs .........................$664.00
Flying Costs.........................$1175.00
Total at mins.......................$ 1839.00

You can easliy do your commercial add on at the FAA mins as well. I soloed after 5 flights. Did my 20 solo flights broke half into pattern tows and half into 3000 foot tows. Then did 5 more dual flights to 3000 to get ready for checkride then took it. These costs are based off my clubs prices. The instructor here charges 10 dollars per flight or you can buy bulk lessons at 12 flights for 100 dollars.
 
Inverted25 said:
You can easliy do your commercial add on at the FAA mins as well. I soloed after 5 flights.
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Prices are similar to our club as well, I'd plan on $2500-3000 for a commercial glider. Still much cheaper than anything other than perhaps a balloon rating.

We charge a few bucks more for tows, but glider availability is generally better too.

One word of advice though, glider instructors ain't getting rich, and if you whine about the $20 they charge you for a flight review, it may be difficult for you to schedule lessons. (Glider owners are more guilty of this than students). If you are nice to them, buy them lunch once or twice, pay attention and show up prepared, they will probably bend over backwards to get your rating done quickly.
 
One word of advice though, glider instructors ain't getting rich, and if you whine about the $20 they charge you for a flight review, it may be difficult for you to schedule lessons. (Glider owners are more guilty of this than students). If you are nice to them, buy them lunch once or twice, pay attention and show up prepared, they will probably bend over backwards to get your rating done quickly.
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Also dont forget about buying the tow pilot lunch as well. Our club only normally operates 3 days a week. But you can fly the others as long as you can get a tow pilot out to fly the Pawnee. So for my training I was able to get a tow pilot to come out on normal off days when the weather was nice to get my training done. Glider clubs are very social clubs. There is alot of hangar flying and cookouts and whatnot. If you go there with the attiude of I'm just here to fly then you wont fit in well. Be willing to help out launching other gliders, putting things away, maybe mowing the runway( both our runways are grass) and then suddenly people will be willing to help you out when you need it.
 
Inverted25 said:
Also dont forget about buying the tow pilot lunch as well. Our club only normally operates 3 days a week. But you can fly the others as long as you can get a tow pilot out to fly the Pawnee. So for my training I was able to get a tow pilot to come out on normal off days when the weather was nice to get my training done. Glider clubs are very social clubs.
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:yeahthat:

If my schedule is free, I have no problem going out to the airport and towing. Just remember though, it isn't like I just show up and flying. Getting the tug out of the hanger, getting the rope out, gassing the plane up, etc takes a bit of time. Usually I won't go to the trouble for less than 4 tows (unless, of course, you are known for buying the tow pilot lunch, hint hint) Or at least saying thank you instead of bitching about there being no lift. Which always seems to be the tow pilot's fault.
 
Wow!! Whatever happened to the $250-300 checkrides?
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Theres not many guys approved to do glider checkrides around here. Plus the fact you cant really fly to meet the examiner somewhere. I mean you could but that would be a pain in the butt. This guy flies his v-tail bonanza up from marion to do our checkrides. So if its just one checkride he charges 450 for the day. If its two or more checkrides he charges 300 a person. You can go down to the club he teaches at in marion and do your checkride there but it ends up being just as much so we just ask him to fly up here for checkrides.
 
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