Insurance. . . a students POV.

surreal1221

surreal1221

Well-Known Member
Alright gents,

I got the latest Flight Training magazine in the mail last week some time, and I have a couple of questions, well. . . I need a couple of questions actually.

I fly out of a small FBO in Winnsboro SC (Fairfield County - KFDW). M and M Aviation is the school, it's Part 61, with 3 or 4 instructors. Great school, perfect environment, and very low traffic count so you can maximize your time being spent in the air and minimize any time on the ground.

Nevertheless. . . I've flown with them 3 times now, and I need to ask them some questions about their insurance, and how it pertains to me when I solo and am renting it without an instructor.

So - Here is the question:

What specific questions would you suggest I ask them?

Thanks everyone!
 
Make sure you are covered for:

-any damages you can make to the airplane

-whatever the airplane can damage

-whoever the airplane can injure

If they have an option to cover that, then you are all set. If not you will want to look into seperate insurance. I am sure they are covered but I doubt they cover you. Very very few flight schools offer that. In fact, I have only heard of one that offers any type of coverage to students and I fly there.

Check this out for a little more info on how it works.

http://www.mcairaviation.com/insurance.htm
 
Timbuff10 said:
Make sure you are covered for:

-any damages you can make to the airplane

-whatever the airplane can damage

-whoever the airplane can injure

If they have an option to cover that, then you are all set. If not you will want to look into seperate insurance. I am sure they are covered but I doubt they cover you. Very very few flight schools offer that. In fact, I have only heard of one that offers any type of coverage to students and I fly there.

Check this out for a little more info on how it works.

http://www.mcairaviation.com/insurance.htm
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an ever bigger thing to check is a 'waiver of subrogation'

The way normal insurance works, if you wreck one of their planes the insurance company will pay the FBO/owner. They (the insurance company) will then come after the person deemed responsible for the incident and sue them to recover their payout. Essentially, you.

A waiver says that the insurance company won't sue once the dust has settled. A very important bullet item to cover when asking about insurance, IMO.

EDIT: Just read thru that link and it looks like they address it as well. EVERY SINGLE Cessna Pilot Center (CPC) is required to insure at least $1,000,000 in damages ($100k per person and then the rest for aircraft and ground damages). It's a requirement to be a CPC, from Cessna.
 
Wheelsup said:
an ever bigger thing to check is a 'waiver of subrogation'
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:yeahthat:

Those are very hard to find. Insurance companies charge a hefty surcharge on aviation policies for waivers.

You may want to consider buying your own policy that has an "umbrella clause" - that will cover what your school's doesn't.
 
surreal1221 said:
What specific questions would you suggest I ask them?

Thanks everyone!
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Show them a copy of the article and ask them "does this effect me?". When they say "of course not, we have insurance" ask them to put in writing that when flying their aircraft with an instructor or solo that their insurance will cover everything and that in the event of an individual or corporation requesting damages as a result of any incident the FBO will cover any and all costs". They won't sign that, regardless of it's actual legal standing if it gets to court.

It will however prompt them to understand the issue a little more and as a result agree that their insurance covers them, it does not cover you and it never will. If they are willing to ask for a waiver of subrogation, and they probably won't be, and if the insurance company is willing to provide it, which they probably won't be, the increased premium will probably be significant and you probably won't want to pay it. A waiver of subrogation is generally only going to provide for protection on a hull damage claim. If you get sued for liability it's not going to help much.

Rare is the renter who is covered by the FBOs policy. Now granted, rare is the incident that requires insurance and rarer still is the actual act of subrogation by an insurance company - but it can happen.

I used to recommend that while a non-solo student you need not worry about it. Anything that happens in the airplane a very reasonable and cheap defense is to point at the CFI and say "he made me do it". You can't be expected to know what's right and wrong, that's what the CFI is there for.

Before you solo though you'll want liability insurance (relatively cheap) and hull insurance (stunningly expensive). Certainly people do buy hull insurance to the replacement cost of the aircraft they fly, although you really only need about 2/3's of the value, since in any accident you survive the aircraft's salvage value will be at least 1/3 of it's value. At the other end some people just buy hull insurance to cover the FBO's deductible.

I knew of an accident where the insurance company asked the pilot if they had renter's insurance, the pilot said yes, they said how much, the pilot said $5K (I think, something in that range) and the insurance company said fine, we'll have that then, and left it at that.

It's a crap shoot - good luck - I flew pretty naked on hull insurance for years and I still own my house - your mileage may vary!
 
Here is another question,

As a CFI, does your company that you work for (unless you are contracting yourself out) cover you?

In the coming years I plan on being hired as a CFI at a school, will their insurance cover the CFI's / employees of said company?

CFIse, thanks for the information. Greatly appreciated.

Can anyone provide some links to renter's insurance companies online? Thxs
 
surreal1221 said:
As a CFI, does your company that you work for (unless you are contracting yourself out) cover you?
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If you are an employee of the company then to the extent that the company has insurance or has the means to defend a judgement you are covered. Your defense is that you were acting at the direction of your employer in the normal job duties associated with your position and if something happened you were an agent of the company and the company defends. No different from a truck driver, bus driver, janitor.

Keep in mind that NOTHING can defend you from negligence. If you are negligent you are always liable and you can't buy insurance for that and your employer is not liable for your negligence.

As far as insurance - I always bought mine through AOPA. Avemco offers insurance and NAFI works with Falcon. However - I think AOPA and Falcon are insurance agents, and while I SHOULD know what company AOPA placed my insurance with, off the top of my head I don't.
 
CFIse,

Once again, thanks for the information.

Obviously I'm not asking these questions thinking about being wreckless in a rented aircraft. I just wanted to get the opinions of everyone here immediately after reading the article.

I had never thought about it before, and obviously now, it's a big deal. I'll check with AOPA and see what they can offer. Granted, I still have to my FBO and CFI and see what their policies are. If it's anything that would cover me, without a CFI, I'll be sure to get it in writing.

Thanks again!
 
surreal1221 said:
Obviously I'm not asking these questions thinking about being wreckless in a rented aircraft. I just wanted to get the opinions of everyone here immediately after reading the article.
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Sorry - I wasn't accusing you of negligence - just pointing out that IF you are negligent all bets are off :-)
 
CFIse said:
Keep in mind that NOTHING can defend you from negligence. If you are negligent you are always liable and you can't buy insurance for that and your employer is not liable for your negligence.
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That's just totally wrong. Protection from your own negligence is exactly why you buy insurance. If you're not negligent, you can't be held liable (generally). You buy insurance so that if you are negligent, the insurance company will pay the damages (and pay to defend you in court, which is huge).

And your employer generally is going to be liable for any damages caused by your negligence during the course of your employment (you are directly liable for your negligence -- your employer is indirectly liable via the doctrine of respondeat superior). Further, in most states your employer is required by state law to indemnify you for liability you incur during and in the course of your employment.

Of course, if you are an "independent contractor," all bets are off.

MF
 
According to the AOPA, 9 OUT OF 10 FBO's do not insure you. You are 100% responsible and liable for the property and bodily injury of the flight.

Get renter's insurance. It's a small price to pay for piece of mind. My plan is only $205 and includes payment of the $5,000 deductable in the event that something goes wrong.
 
wheelsup said:
The way normal insurance works, if you wreck one of their planes the insurance company will pay the FBO/owner. They (the insurance company) will then come after the person deemed responsible for the incident and sue them to recover their payout. Essentially, you.
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This is called subrogation :D

If this happens, it will haunt you for the rest of your life. Get renter's insurance.
 
Minnesota_Flyer said:
That's just totally wrong. Protection from your own negligence is exactly why you buy insurance. If you're not negligent, you can't be held liable (generally). You buy insurance so that if you are negligent, the insurance company will pay the damages (and pay to defend you in court, which is huge).

And your employer generally is going to be liable for any damages caused by your negligence during the course of your employment (you are directly liable for your negligence -- your employer is indirectly liable via the doctrine of respondeat superior). Further, in most states your employer is required by state law to indemnify you for liability you incur during and in the course of your employment.

Of course, if you are an "independent contractor," all bets are off.

MF
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Sounds like something a lawyer would say! Oh wait ....
 
Minnesota_Flyer said:
That's just totally wrong. Protection from your own negligence is exactly why you buy insurance. If you're not negligent, you can't be held liable (generally).
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You're right of course - I was thinking of a different issue.
 
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