Instrument Training (Cross in the Road )

V

Vector

Well-Known Member
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I am at a cross road in my Instrument Training. I have about 110TT and about 25CC. I think I have fallen into the hands of the flight school dribble and I want to get myself removed as soon as possible. At this point, I think I should finish my Instrument Training through Part 141. My instructor is discouraging me and he is saying I am better off flying with him to get my Cross Country requirement towards IFR rating. He says I could knock out more practice while we fly Cross country. I find this funny because he initially told me he would turn me to a safety pilot to build/time and experience as soon as we have covered the basics. When I bring up the issue about safety pilot, he tells me I am better flying with him. Every time we fly, he tells me I am lost and that it is better I go out with him. But when I show him my location, he keeps quiet.This coupled out with other issues with charges is just getting my blood to boil. I need to finish my IR and move on to Commercial/CFI. All his Private Students are complaining about going up and burning holes in the skies. Most of them fly 3 to 4 times a week but he will not let them solo. They are all soloing at about 35 hours. That is a lot and all his students can't be the problem.

At this point, I have done over 25 hours with him thus met all the requirement for Part 61 except CC requirement. What would be the cost effective route for me? Go to another Part 61 school or try to transfer my credit to a Part 141 school to finish up? My goal is to get a commercial license and hopefully add a CFI on the side. I have a full time job(non-aviation related) that pays well and do not plan to leave it. However, I like to go to the airport after work in the evening or weekends to fly. I think I can do the CFI thing on the side and still feel a part of aviation.

FYI, I have spent about $13K and I am only budgeting $15K for all my training. Looking at the Coast Guard Aux thing to build time slowly.

Your advice is greatly appreciated. All are welcomed.

Thanks
Vector.
 
Time to find a new instructor. Your probably going to end up spending more then you budgeted. Kind of always happens that way in Aviation.
 
Coming from an instructor... FIND A NEW INSTRUCTOR... The majority of the Cross country time required for your instrument rating can be solo VFR flying anyway. Why not save some money find an OLD pos 152 and fiddle fart around the skies in that for a while
 
Find your own safety pilot and go back to your instructor ( or another) when done. I've told my instructor I'm doing all the time building up to 40 hours PIC XC first then going to start training with am instructor. He had no problem with that.
 
Is there another instructor within the same school you can switch to? Is there a chief pilot you can discuss your concerns with?

I doubt switching to 141 will save you any time/money. Switching schools will involve several evaluation flights because they'll have no idea what your background was or how proficient you are.

What do you suppose your instructor's motivation would be to unnecessarily extend his clients' training? Is he young and trying to build time? Old, retired, and wants to have something to do at the airport?

Have you told him how frustrated you are?

He may or may not be a lousy instructor. It sounds like he needs to communicate more specifically with his critiques for why he doesn't think you'd do well without him. If you don't understand specific examples of why you need him, tell him you don't understand. Make him explain it in more detail. Say, "I thought I had good awareness of where I was at and what I was doing. Could you tell me when you saw I was lost?" It's his job.

Also, what syllabus are you using? How does the syllabus address the idea of XC time building?

When I'm training instrument clients, I tell them from the start that they'll need to build some XC and hood time after we get done with the syllabus tasks. They can do these hours with a safety pilot or an instructor. I tell them the pros and cons of each method. So far, everybody has decided to fly off the hours with me. We focus a lot on real world IFR flying, getting in to actual IMC, copying clearances in various ways, flying unique approaches, etc. We do the planning and flying exactly like they will need to do after getting their ratings. Get a DUATS weather briefing together, discuss the conditions, NOTAMs, etc. Fly into and out of busy Class B with STARs/SIDs, small, untowered airports, etc. Nobody has ever regretted it, as far as I can tell.

Good luck with everything. Let us know how it goes!
 
Pilotforhire587 said:
The majority of the Cross country time required for your instrument rating can be solo VFR flying anyway. Why not save some money find an OLD pos 152 and fiddle fart around the skies in that for a while
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I wouldn't do this because it doesn't prepare a person very well for real world IFR flying.

In fact, I did my own training 8 years ago exactly as you're saying here. I banged around in 152s in VFR with a safety pilot. You're right, it saved a bunch of money. I passed my checkride fine.

The down side? I was instrument rated, yet still didn't really understand how to USE the instrument system. I could fly approaches in to my home airport all day. I did not feel at all prepared to fly instrument cross countries in to any airport at any time. To me, that's half of what the instrument rating is about. What's the point in having it if you're not proficient to use it?
 
Eh, you're fine. Your instructor is obviously trying to milk you so you do need to find another one, but forget about 141. If you feel pretty comfortable with your instrument knowledge so far than I would just get a new instructor, continue part 61, and you should be done in a few hours without any unnecessary expense.
 
amjon said:
Find your own safety pilot and go back to your instructor ( or another) when done. I've told my instructor I'm doing all the time building up to 40 hours PIC XC first then going to start training with am instructor. He had no problem with that.
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with that, just two points to consider:

1) You are going to need 15 hours dual anyway, so you might as start when you have 25 XC (nothing says that dual can't be XC as well)

2) It isn't a bad idea to do at least a couple of instrument lessons first, that way you can practice approaches/holds/etc while you are doing those XC flights. If at all possible, try to do some of athe XC flights with someone that has an instrument rating already so you can file.

Looking out the window, today seems like a great one for practice approaches! KPIE 181400Z 1814/1912 21006KT 5SM BR OVC008
 
ryanmickG said:
Your instructor is obviously trying to milk you so you do need to find another one...
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I wouldn't go that far. That might be the case, but it might not be. I wouldn't be so quick to throw the CFI under the bus.

Vector might be a slow learner who thinks he's able to handle a lot more than he is. Maybe his CFI is politely trying to tell him, "No, you need more training," and he's not getting the hint.

Probably not, but I don't want to rule out the possibility. The CFI and trainee sometimes have very different expectations from each other, especially when they aren't communicating very well, which seems to be the case here.

There aren't enough details in the original post to say for sure, one way or another.
 
You can only transfer 25% of your 61 training to a new 141 course, so that is out of the question. If I were you, I would timebuild with a safety pilot to get near 50 hours PIC XC (and also the 40 hours instrument experience) and during these trips work on your basic flying, VOR tracking, partial panel flying, etc... Then find a new instructor, tell them the situation and have them take you for an evaluation flight.
 
It sounds like your instructor is not communicating with you, and/or vice-versa. What an instructor may initially tell you about what may happen can completely change once they actually see you in action, but he should have told you all that by now and not be left wondering. So, ask him to explain himself better. it seems as though he has some issues with your skill level and not telling you about it or trying to play the nice guy. tell him that you are both adults and you need to be told why something isn't working for him and how to fix the problem. If he can't explain to you why he feels you aren't 'getting it' or how to fix it in a satisfactory way, maybe then look for another instructor.

Also, flying multiple IFR crosscountries with an instructor is pretty common. Flight instruction/training is about safety, not time-building. If a newly minted VFR pilot came in wanting IFR training, you can bet we'll be flying several IFR crosscountries instead of the one required, if he had the time to build. Why not?

Lastly, always budget for the entire rating with an instructor and then some. Never budget for only the FAA minimum time.
 
Thank you all for the reply's so far. To add to the situation so everyone has a clearer picture. The school has about 5 flight instructor but the guy I fly with is the owner. He claims he is doing it for the love of aviation but we all noticed that he rarely lets his other flight instructor fly. It is a family business where he has his whole family involved in some way or the other to include maintenance. He will never discuss before we get into the aircraft. He hardly ever does ground with anyone. He will tell you to go read it up when you ask him to clarify things. When you tell him you don't understand his way of doing things and that he should try to explain, he tells me I should not question his skill level because he has been doing it for over 30 years and that all I should do is just mimic whatever he is doing. The list goes on with this guy. I think I have been patient enough with him. Looks like staying Part 61 is the way to go.

I fly out of Class B airspace if that helps.

Thanks all.
Vector.
 
Vector said:
Thank you all for the reply's so far. To add to the situation so everyone has a clearer picture. The school has about 5 flight instructor but the guy I fly with is the owner. He claims he is doing it for the love of aviation but we all noticed that he rarely lets his other flight instructor fly. It is a family business where he has his whole family involved in some way or the other to include maintenance. He will never discuss before we get into the aircraft. He hardly ever does ground with anyone. He will tell you to go read it up when you ask him to clarify things. When you tell him you don't understand his way of doing things and that he should try to explain, he tells me I should not question his skill level because he has been doing it for over 30 years and that all I should do is just mimic whatever he is doing. The list goes on with this guy. I think I have been patient enough with him. Looks like staying Part 61 is the way to go.

I fly out of Class B airspace if that helps.

Thanks all.
Vector.
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That is enough reason to leave the school. An instructor should never have that attitude.
 
Vector's IFR training sounds a lot like mine was. I needed another 35 hours of X-Country and my instructor convinced me to do it as dual instruction. While it was useful to get experience copying clearences and atlking to ATC, those things aren't really that difficult to pick up while practicing approaches locally. On the cross country flights, I got to practice the things like straight & level flight climbs & descents, and tracking a course that I would have had to do anyway if I'd been solo, while my CFI played with the GPS on the pretense of teaching me how it worked, except that I didn't get to turn any knobs or push any buttons. We also used a variety of aircraft with widely varying equipment- from older 172's with no GPS, a Piper Arrow with G430's, a 172SP with a KLN80B and an autopilot, a DA40 with a KLN94, and finally a G1000 equipped 172. Switching back & forth meant time getting used to a different airplane, although I liked flying every one of them. The G1000 came along after we finished the X-Country part, but even then I only got to learn the PFD hands-on because it was on my side of the cockpit. By the time I was ready for the checkride, I felt really ready, but also that the training took longer & cost more than it should have.

My advice for Vector:
1. If you think your CFI is stringing things out, try flying with somebody else or even change instructors. And don't feel guilty about it.
2. If your dual X-Country flights aren't productive- if you're not working on things specific to IFR X-Country flight, and handling the radios, GPS & autopilot yourself- consider finishing the cross country time on your own, either solo, or with somebody you don't have to pay to ride with you.
3. Fly whatever make & model aircraft you're planning to take the checkride in pretty much exclusively. You can check out in other makes & models after you're done with your Instrument Rating.
4. Whenever you're taking dual instruction, insist on handling the radios, GPS & autopilot yourself- or at least as much as possible. The idea is for you to learn how to use these things, not for your instructor- he should already know how.
5. Insist on a preflight briefing on whatever the lesson is, a postflight briefing on how the lesson went, and what the next lesson is going to be about. This doesn't need to eat up a bunch of time, and it can even be done on the way out to the aircraft before the flight, and on the way back in after the lesson is over.
6. Communicate with your instructor. If you don't think you're getting your money's worth, find the will and the way to say so.
 
Thank you all for the reply's so far. To add to the situation so everyone has a clearer picture. The school has about 5 flight instructor but the guy I fly with is the owner. He claims he is doing it for the love of aviation but we all noticed that he rarely lets his other flight instructor fly. It is a family business where he has his whole family involved in some way or the other to include maintenance. He will never discuss before we get into the aircraft. He hardly ever does ground with anyone. He will tell you to go read it up when you ask him to clarify things. When you tell him you don't understand his way of doing things and that he should try to explain, he tells me I should not question his skill level because he has been doing it for over 30 years and that all I should do is just mimic whatever he is doing. The list goes on with this guy. I think I have been patient enough with him. Looks like staying Part 61 is the way to go.

I fly out of Class B airspace if that helps.

Thanks all.
Vector.​
Click to expand...

From what you have said. Find another instructor. There is more than one way to do a task. Just because he had been doing it for 30 years doesn't make it right. Find a new instructor.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
Nothing wrong with that, just two points to consider:

1) You are going to need 15 hours dual anyway, so you might as start when you have 25 XC (nothing says that dual can't be XC as well)

2) It isn't a bad idea to do at least a couple of instrument lessons first, that way you can practice approaches/holds/etc while you are doing those XC flights. If at all possible, try to do some of athe XC flights with someone that has an instrument rating already so you can file.

Looking out the window, today seems like a great one for practice approaches! KPIE 181400Z 1814/1912 21006KT 5SM BR OVC008
Click to expand...

That's great advice but remember: When you are IFR you have less ability to avoid clouds. if you get inside the clouds, the safety pilot is now obsolete as a required crewmember, and since you don't have the rating yet, he is PIC and you can't log the actual (Unless he's a CFII)

I agree it's a great idea to get someone rated and file but be careful about actually going into clouds as far as being legal and logging goes
 
Vector said:
Looking at the Coast Guard Aux thing to build time slowly.
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Do you mean CAP (Air Force Aux)? How do you fly for CG Aux? I'd like to do that!

But anyway, I agree with everyone here, find a new instructor and hey, if you feel confident enough, fly with a safety pilot and practice the skills you've already learned about the system and then when you're ready to continue, fly with an instructor and get ready for the checkride.

Try this: Plan an IFR XC with approaches, sids, and stars

Now fly it, VFR (obviously) and see how you do. It might be hard to follow stars and sids near Bravo airspace but try to adhere to the plan as much as airspace allows and you will be amazed at how confident you get flying IFR without an instructor babying you.

The only downside to this method is you don't exactly get the radiowork you would get IFR but if you get flight following, it's at least a step closer.

Good luck!
 
elmetal said:
That's great advice but remember: When you are IFR you have less ability to avoid clouds. if you get inside the clouds, the safety pilot is now obsolete as a required crewmember, and since you don't have the rating yet, he is PIC and you can't log the actual (Unless he's a CFII)

I agree it's a great idea to get someone rated and file but be careful about actually going into clouds as far as being legal and logging goes
Click to expand...

As long as Pilot A is the sole manipulator and Pilot B is the safety pilot and Pilot B is acting as the PIC and instrument rated, both pilots can log all of the time Pilot A is under the hood, regardless of flight conditions, including actual instrument time.
 
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